Coronavirus in Massachusetts (Springfield, New Bedford, Fall River: house insurance, leases, loans)

[Mayei]

Originally Posted by OutdoorLover

You'd have to present me with some new information to change my mind. Showing that some scientists were skeptical before this was all done, is not reason to be fearful after (and yes, I recall some people being concerned when the broad outline of Warp Speed was first sketched). Again, the safety and efficacy have been demonstrated. I have yet to hear anyone make a valid, cogent argument for fearing these vaccines. And yes, I get it - you've been vaccinated, but you're also saying that people have valid reasons to be afraid. No, they don't.

Interesting wording. I don't think they should be afraid, but I can see why, based on the overwhelming messaging through most of last year. Also, forcing people to take it won't make them any more trustful. My main point is, I trust it and I think people should be encouraged to take it but not forced, but apparently that is a minority opinion here.

[Mayei]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Crazy thought. If these conditions of employment are so important to the workers, they could unionize and collectively bargain.

Agreed, and many unions have come out against mandatory vaccinations.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by Mayei

Interesting wording. I don't think they should be afraid, but I can see why, based on the overwhelming messaging through most of last year. Also, forcing people to take it won't make them any more trustful. My main point is, I trust it and I think people should be encouraged to take it but not forced, but apparently that is a minority opinion here.

I guess I'm a little confused now. At first you made is as though they had some sort of religious objection, but now it sounds more a matter of them not trusting the vaccine from a medical standpoint. Which is it???

[Mayei]

Originally Posted by massnative71

I guess I'm a little confused now. At first you made is as though they had some sort of religious objection, but now it sounds more a matter of them not trusting the vaccine from a medical standpoint. Which is it???

Religious objection can be theistic or ethical/moral. If someone does not consent to taking the Covid vaccine, they theoretically could have an ethical objection to being forced to take it.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by Mayei

Religious objection can be theistic or ethical/moral. If someone does not consent to taking the Covid vaccine, they theoretically could have an ethical objection to being forced to take it.

But you seem to be validating their fears on the basis that it was rushed through very fast, not on the grounds of ethics/morals.

[Mayei]

Originally Posted by massnative71

But you seem to be validating their fears on the basis that it was rushed through very fast, not on the grounds of ethics/morals.

They're two different things. It's not up to me whether or not my friend gets exemption at his workplace. I do have compassion for people who have very real feelings of apprehension and fear around the vaccine, and whether or not I think it's justified, I try to see where they're coming from. Then again, I know unvaccinated people personally and see that they're not making decisions out of spite or carelessness. These situations are very challenging for them, and there are feelings of betrayal and powerlessness when they feel their bodily integrity is being compromised.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by Mayei

They're two different things. It's not up to me whether or not my friend gets exemption at his workplace. I do have compassion for people who have very real feelings of apprehension and fear around the vaccine, and whether or not I think it's justified, I try to see where they're coming from. Then again, I know unvaccinated people personally and see that they're not making decisions out of spite or carelessness. These situations are very challenging for them, and there are feelings of betrayal and powerlessness when they feel their bodily integrity is being compromised.

OK but it really does appear you were (based on the original conversation) defending their religious objection via a medical argument, whether that is your friend's view or not. If one's fears are medical related, it would be considered fraud to claim a religious exemption on their behalf. I feel that needs to be clarified here.

[OutdoorLover]

Originally Posted by Mayei

Interesting wording. I don't think they should be afraid, but I can see why, based on the overwhelming messaging through most of last year. Also, forcing people to take it won't make them any more trustful. My main point is, I trust it and I think people should be encouraged to take it but not forced, but apparently that is a minority opinion here.

Well, I feel less strongly about the mandates than I do about the basic science that they are safe and effective. For my part though, I am not *against* the mandates, so, guilty as charged I guess. As mentioned, we've long had them - and did they (on balance) hurt of help? I think they've helped far more than they have hurt. I do agree that persuasion is better than coercion, but when you've got over 100 million American who've dug their heels in and stopped listening long ago, I think persuasion is having little effect at this point. And with over 640,000 dead Americans and counting, I still think we need to do better against this virus.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Crazy thought. If these conditions of employment are so important to the workers, they could unionize and collectively bargain.

There you go talking Socialist again. LOL

[Mayei]

Originally Posted by massnative71

OK but it really does appear you were (based on the original conversation) defending their religious objection via a medical argument, whether that is your friend's view or not. If one's fears are medical related, it would be considered fraud to claim a religious exemption on their behalf. I feel that needs to be clarified here.

I feel like you're conflating different things I've stated. I won't be claiming anything on their behalf, I am trying to help them navigate the situation as a friend. Religious exemption includes nontheistic ethical beliefs and ultimately it's determined on a case by case basis. The goal is not to be deceptive but to learn if their ethical objection is protected.