Gas line cost insanity? (Boston: new house, storage, versus)

[Bamaman1]

Now we see how difficult it is to run utilities in the region. That's why so many Boston area homes are heated with fuel oil kept in tanks. And it doesn't help that electricity is so expensive there, either. Winter weather's just too cold for electric heat pumps to be a great alternative.

It was a shame that natural gas lines were not run when the neighborhoods were originally setup.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Bamaman1

Now we see how difficult it is to run utilities in the region. That's why so many Boston area homes are heated with fuel oil kept in tanks. And it doesn't help that electricity is so expensive there, either. Winter weather's just too cold for electric heat pumps to be a great alternative.

It was a shame that natural gas lines were not run when the neighborhoods were originally setup.

How common were natural gas lines 100 - 250 years ago?

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by timberline742

How common were natural gas lines 100 - 250 years ago?

They were incredibly common back then. Mostly used for street lighting at first but eventually made its way into homes in the 1880s for cooking and heating into the 1890s.

By 1930 the gas co was providing service in suburbs like Wayland, Concord, Lincoln, Sudbury, etc.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

They were incredibly common back then. Mostly used for street lighting at first but eventually made its way into homes in the 1880s for cooking and heating into the 1890s.

By 1930 the gas co was providing service in suburbs like Wayland, Concord, Lincoln, Sudbury, etc.

So they roughly started 150 years ago? Was it a price issue then that got communities away from it? Just putting in a oil barrel in a house sounds much easier than putting in trenches and lines.

[wolfgang239]

If my memory serves me correctly the first gas lines around here were serving parts of Boston for street lighting as early as the 1820's. Over time the infrastructure was built out enough to a point that each new customer is a PITA to connect. Sometimes you get lucky and they'll connect a whole neighborhood but there's no incentive to run all the infrastructure for 1 or 2 houses that will take a century to recoup. Then they started charging prices like OP is seeing, and since it is a regulated utility they get to set the rules on who does the work. Same goes for electric, you get 1 pole for free but each one after that can be insanely expensive. They used to help with the cost but those days are pretty much gone. I know someone out in Northfield that only electrified in the late 80s and it would be prohibitively expensive to do today due to how far they are from the road.

Many more new builds are going propane, heat pump or in some cases oil. If they are building a development intersecting a road that already has gas it is easier to recoup, and sometimes the builder can lay the gas themselves.

Another thing to keep in mind... both oil and gas prices have fluctuated greatly even over the course of the past 20 years. That also accounts for changing demands by consumers as well as utility build outs. A lot of 80s townhouses have gas lines a few hundred feet away but are all electric because that was a decent choice back then, although shortsighted.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

Many more new builds are going propane, heat pump or in some cases oil. If they are building a development intersecting a road that already has gas it is easier to recoup, and sometimes the builder can lay the gas themselves.

It's really interesting to see how this can vary a lot from town-to-town. Most of the communities I work in have sporadic access to gas. Some solutions are more common in one town and less common in others. For example, when I go to Lexington I see a lot of new builds that use propane when NG is not available. In Needham, I still see a lot of new construction homes with oil when NG is not available.

Personally, I like the idea of building a house with propane. You get all the benefits of NG except for maybe pricing but that fluctuates and if NG ever comes down your street the conversion costs are lower.

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

Another thing to keep in mind... both oil and gas prices have fluctuated greatly even over the course of the past 20 years. That also accounts for changing demands by consumers as well as utility build outs. A lot of 80s townhouses have gas lines a few hundred feet away but are all electric because that was a decent choice back then, although shortsighted.

My house was built in the 80's and thankfully they had the foresight to hook it up to gas for heat and hot water. However, for some strange reason they went with electric for cooking. I see this a lot in 80's homes though. Last year I renovated my kitchen sweet 80's formica kitchen and am much happier with gas cooking.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

If my memory serves me correctly the first gas lines around here were serving parts of Boston for street lighting as early as the 1820's. Over time the infrastructure was built out enough to a point that each new customer is a PITA to connect. Sometimes you get lucky and they'll connect a whole neighborhood but there's no incentive to run all the infrastructure for 1 or 2 houses that will take a century to recoup. Then they started charging prices like OP is seeing, and since it is a regulated utility they get to set the rules on who does the work. Same goes for electric, you get 1 pole for free but each one after that can be insanely expensive. They used to help with the cost but those days are pretty much gone. I know someone out in Northfield that only electrified in the late 80s and it would be prohibitively expensive to do today due to how far they are from the road.

Many more new builds are going propane, heat pump or in some cases oil. If they are building a development intersecting a road that already has gas it is easier to recoup, and sometimes the builder can lay the gas themselves.

Another thing to keep in mind... both oil and gas prices have fluctuated greatly even over the course of the past 20 years. That also accounts for changing demands by consumers as well as utility build outs. A lot of 80s townhouses have gas lines a few hundred feet away but are all electric because that was a decent choice back then, although shortsighted.

They did this in my neighborhood when we moved in 2014. Our street of about 40 houses is big enough to meet some threshold. With a shorter road or cul-de-sac it probably just makes sense to use whatever is there.

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by Bamaman1

Winter weather's just too cold for electric heat pumps to be a great alternative.

This is really dependent on your supply cost, infrastructure (i.e., solar panels), and heat pump design.

My slightly oversized Mitsu H2i heat pumps have a COP rating approaching or exceeding 3 at 25f+ temperatures. The pumps maintain a COP rating of 2.25 down to 5f, and will heat down to -17f.

Paired with my towns CO-OP electrical rates this nets a cost benefit when crude isn't crashing (like it is now). Not a cheap as nat gas, but as Wolfgang suggested, a very viable option versus home oil or propane.

[BostonMike7]

Originally Posted by Robert5

I am speculating that you can contract the entire install to a gas contractor, and they can interface with Eversourse. That may be wrong, but it will not cost you anything to call the gas contractor and get their input.

They aren't going to push a pipe under a public road. It must be dug. You've got sewer lines crossing, sometimes buries electrical, water runoff basins, manholes, etc. The location of the pipe must be known relative to surrounding utilities in the road....especially a gas line. Considering the roads around here can be quote old, it's not uncommon to start digging and find utilities that nobody knew was there. Digging up a public road is a big deal. Permits from the town, heavy equipment rentals, police detail (yes, even on a cul-de-sac). etc. Depending on the road, money is also paid to the town into a fund to finance a future repaving, even with a temporary paving repair. Hence, the $500/ft price. 400 feet up a public road is going to cost $$$. It may be a new road, but nobody is going to sign off on that liability, especially after the Eversource gas explosions. 10 years from now last thing anyone needs is a crew repairing a sewer line to put a shovel through this gas line because it wandered 5-10' off track on a 400 foot push.

Private property, yes it can be pushed provided the existing utilities are marked. The photo you linked clearly shows an install on private property (in Pennsylvania) But, the OP is requesting/requiring an easement from the neighbor to cross their property to do so. Keep in mind, they haven't purchased the property yet either. The OP would technically need to purchase first and then seek the easement. Neighbor has every right to say no which then means OP is looking at running the line in the public road.

Also, one thing that needs to be looked into as well. The town may require a certain grace period after a road is paved before it can be dug up again other than an emergency. Could be 5 years or 10 years. I don't know the age of the development the OP is looking into, but if the line needs to go in the street, the town may say it needs to wait x number of years before allowing the road to be cut up.


I'm speaking as someone who has dug up a number of roads here in MA while doing construction. I've since left that industry 13 years ago so things could be slightly different.

[gf2020]

When neuco, the National Grid subcontractor, did our project in late 2014, they did not push metal pipe at all. As mentioned above, they dug a shallow trench and used yellow polyethylene pipe. That is typical for new gas line installations.

FWIW, we had 6 houses connect to natural gas and we each paid $1500. Judging by the amount of work involved, the number of days and the number of workers, it definitely cost more than $9000 to do the total project, so National Grid obviously ate part of the construction cost. However, a cost of $500 per foot seems ridiculous.