Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Are The Red Sox Really That Important?
Yes, I live and die with the team. 7 25.93%
No, while I am a fan, I have other priorities. 12 44.44%
I could care less. 8 29.63%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-28-2008, 07:58 PM
 
5,816 posts, read 15,850,434 times
Reputation: 4734

Advertisements

LeavingMA:

I grew up a red sox fan and was born in MA, but still don't completely understand the obsession with the red sox. I always thought most of the obsession was with the constant losing and not having won a world series since 1918, but even now I can't really say that. [quote]

I really have the impression that today's passion for the Sox largely has its roots in the '67 season. One good read about that year is a book by Bill Reynolds, Lost Summer: The '67 Red Sox and the Impossible Dream. The author has an interesting take on that season. It has to do with the fact that the country was going through a traumatic period in its history, and the idea that in New England at first, and then across the country as the season progressed, following the fortunes of this underdog team actually playing out the kind of old-fashioned sports fantasy associated with a more simple past became an escape from the scary reality all around in the late '60's. Whatever your thoughts on that, this book does give good detail on that season, and shows the growing excitement that developed into a passion that has expanded to this day. Now, what has kept it going for forty-plus years is another question. As LeavingMA suggests, that might very well center on the season-to-season hope that maybe "next year" they'll finally break The Curse.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
LeavingMA:

People criticize the yankees for spending lots of money, when the red sox are usually right behind them or 3rd in spending every year. [quote]

True, they have a big payroll, but take a closer look. I don't really know the numbers, but I'm guessing they would drop a few places in payroll ranking if you discounted Manny's salary. Not only was this one player signed under the previous ownership, but it happened in a year when there was some aggressive bidding for players, leading to unusually high salaries. Remember, this was the same year that the Rangers signed A-Rod to his current contract. It's partly an accident of timing that the Sox signed one player to an unusually lucrative contract that still causes a spike in their payroll seven years later.

Also, look at how the Sox have put together their championship teams. They've brought up quite a collection of high-quality talent through their own system, and they've also had a knack for signing players who move below the radar, really good players who somehow are not as well known as their talent might lead one to expect (Mueller, Millar, Arroyo, Pokey, Foulke, Lowell, etc.), or who are just about to blossom at the time the Sox acquire them (think Ortiz here). Yes, they've benefited from having money, but they've made very efficient use of that money, and have not, so far at least, reflected the Yankees' history of outbidding everyone else time and again, so to stock their lineup with high-priced, big-name free agents.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

LeavingMA: I also find it amazing how many people constantly wear red sox jerseys and red sox hats basically any day of the week or even out and about. I do think its funny when grown men consistently wear red sox jerseys of their favorite player and even at games they are taking pictures or calling the players names like they are 9 years old again. [quote]

As I said above, the extreme cases get noticed, but don't get carried away with thinking they are the majority of fans.

Last edited by ogre; 07-28-2008 at 08:06 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-28-2008, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Newton, Mass.
2,954 posts, read 12,266,371 times
Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre View Post
True, they have a big payroll, but take a closer look. I don't really know the numbers, but I'm guessing they would drop a few places in payroll ranking if you discounted Manny's salary. Not only was this one player signed under the previous ownership, but it happened in a year when there was some aggressive bidding for players, leading to unusually high salaries. Remember, this was the same year that the Rangers signed A-Rod to his current contract. It's partly an accident of timing that the Sox signed one player to an unusually lucrative contract that still causes a spike in their payroll seven years later.

Also, look at how the Sox have put together their championship teams. They've brought up quite a collection of high-quality talent through their own system, and they've also had a knack for signing players who move below the radar, really good players who somehow are not as well known as their talent might lead one to expect (Mueller, Millar, Arroyo, Pokey, Foulke, Lowell, etc.), or who are just about to blossom at the time the Sox acquire them (think Ortiz here). Yes, they've benefited from having money, but they've made very efficient use of that money, and have not, so far at least, reflected the Yankees' history of outbidding everyone else time and again, so to stock their lineup with high-priced, big-name free agents
Ogre, as usual you hit it on the head (the book is great, BTW). Manny's increasingly looking like he's gone and he is not the paradigm player of the current regime. The Sox, while they might rank high in payroll (had been second, I think they are now 4th), are still competing against a division rival that spends 60% more. Manny does account for 15% of the team's payroll by himself, which does reflect that he came aboard at the high-water mark of free agent salaries, at least for position players. One quibble: the Rangers didn't sign A-Rod's "current" contract as he opted out of that one and got an even sweeter one from the Yankees this offseason. Which is remarkable given that nobody else was bidding on him, and the Yankees said they would not take him back if he opted out. Guess they really showed him, giving him a raise that was virtually what he was seeking while they had no other bidders pushing them higher.

I have a pretty busy life, and do things other than watch the games, but I have the MLB package in New York and I see a lot of Sox games. It is something I enjoy, and I've been known to wear a Sox hat or shirt in the streets. Even the streets of New York. Last time I checked, I'm not a drunk or a knucklehead, but I enjoy the intricacy of the game, the progression of the season (it's a sign of warmer weather coming, which is why there are no truly great baseball cities that are not cold in winter), a constant background noise throughout the summer, and just getting exciting when the air gets nippy. For six months there is a game almost every day and it becomes part of the routine, so that winter seems all the more barren for its absence. Fenway has been there for almost 100 years, the team for longer, and it's been a tradition for a century's worth of summers, just like apple picking in September and raking leaves in October. And they have generated so many dramatic moments, both painful and more recently glorious. Maybe I fit in the "enthusiastic but sane excitement" category, but I would have some trouble dating someone who had absolutely no interest, and flat out could not date a Yankee fan. It's just a part of my life that I'd like to share with someone who also cares about it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 07:38 AM
 
49 posts, read 253,539 times
Reputation: 60
The Red Sox following is NOTHING compared to the college football scene in the midwest and south. If you've never been outside of Massachusetts you have no idea what I'm talking about. If you've ever spent time in SEC country/Big 12/Big 10 country during football season you absolutely will know what I'm talking about. I thought the people in Boston were "good" fans, and not obnoxious about it, although I personally never understood how anyone could get so excited over a boring sport like baseball.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 07:43 AM
 
3,075 posts, read 5,622,235 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre View Post
Of course the Sox are not the only sports team with obsessed fans. A number of college football teams have just as ravenous a following, as well as NC's big college basketball teams, and of course there is Wisconsin and its crazy passion for the Packers. I'm sure that on the home turf of all these teams you'll find people going to the extreme in their allegiance to their teams.

In fact, I'd guess you'd find some of these obsessed fans anywhere, even where the general populace is not quite as passionate about any of their teams as Boston is about the Sox. I'm guessing that in many cases, this has to do with a person's insecurity, and penchant for trying to feel important through association with something bigger than himself. This phenomenon is not limited to sports fandom either. You'll see the same with people who express a desperate pride in the companies they work for, the cities or states where they live, etc. This situation is kind of sad, but I'd say that it should not be confused with healthy passion for a favorite team. This can be a good thing, but, like so many good things, it can be a problem when carried to the extreme. And, as so often is the case, the extreme is what gets noticed. Try to look beyond the nuts on the extreme, and appreciate the good feeling that enthusiastic but sane excitement over a team can generate.
I still don't think its fair that some baseball teams can spend significantly more money than everyone else, but I guess that is a whole other argument.

I've been down to North Carolina in the middle of the ACC Basketball Championship and gone to the the semifinal games, and although they love their college basketball, they don't react the same as red sox fans do. I also spent some time with SEC football and although their fans are just as loyal, I wouldn't say they are quite as fanatic and the atmosphere is different. I've never seen any fights or real arguments in those games...they will make fun of each other, but they don't really yell negative chants or get into fights like at a red sox/yankees game. It is more relaxed.

A lot of the crazy and obnoxious red sox fans now are people who weren't alive for the '67 season. I think a lot of it revolves around a pride-thing, an us vs. everyone else attitude.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Boston
142 posts, read 658,480 times
Reputation: 72
I've spent my whole adult life here, and I still don't understand the obsession. Perhaps coming from someone who considers baseball to be 'America's naptime', I still don't get people paying hundreds of dollars for a ticket to a game, or (gasp) placing a bid for a Monster seat. Combined with outrageous parking & concession prices, it's a very steep price to pay to follow a sports team like sheep.
Note that there's no true salary cap in MLB, so teams like the Sox & Yankees can buy a contender every year. I often wonder what the fans in the small market teams thin every season - why bother going to a game?
I get freebies to games a few times a year, and frankly don't think Fenway is a nice ballpark. Between the seats, lavatories, etc. the park anemities pales in comparison to Gillette or the BankNorth Center.
Count me as the fan who keeps it in the proper perspecive, watches an occasional game, and finds better things to do in the summer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 12:05 PM
 
3,075 posts, read 5,622,235 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjscdn View Post
I've spent my whole adult life here, and I still don't understand the obsession. Perhaps coming from someone who considers baseball to be 'America's naptime', I still don't get people paying hundreds of dollars for a ticket to a game, or (gasp) placing a bid for a Monster seat. Combined with outrageous parking & concession prices, it's a very steep price to pay to follow a sports team like sheep.
Note that there's no true salary cap in MLB, so teams like the Sox & Yankees can buy a contender every year. I often wonder what the fans in the small market teams thin every season - why bother going to a game?
I get freebies to games a few times a year, and frankly don't think Fenway is a nice ballpark. Between the seats, lavatories, etc. the park anemities pales in comparison to Gillette or the BankNorth Center.
Count me as the fan who keeps it in the proper perspecive, watches an occasional game, and finds better things to do in the summer.
I'm with you. With the prices being really expensive for games, I've noticed the crowd to be more of "a place to be seen", but not really paying attention to most the game. It appears more to have to do with status now.

I've visited quite a few other ballparks and I have to say they are alot more enjoyable and nice. Fenway is a place to go and see a game once or twice for the experience, but after that I'd prefer a more comfortable stadium with more amentities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Newton, Mass.
2,954 posts, read 12,266,371 times
Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjscdn View Post
I've spent my whole adult life here, and I still don't understand the obsession. Perhaps coming from someone who considers baseball to be 'America's naptime', I still don't get people paying hundreds of dollars for a ticket to a game, or (gasp) placing a bid for a Monster seat. Combined with outrageous parking & concession prices, it's a very steep price to pay to follow a sports team like sheep.
Note that there's no true salary cap in MLB, so teams like the Sox & Yankees can buy a contender every year. I often wonder what the fans in the small market teams thin every season - why bother going to a game?
I get freebies to games a few times a year, and frankly don't think Fenway is a nice ballpark. Between the seats, lavatories, etc. the park anemities pales in comparison to Gillette or the BankNorth Center.
Count me as the fan who keeps it in the proper perspecive, watches an occasional game, and finds better things to do in the summer.
Just to chime back in on behalf of Fenway: I file this posting under the heading "missing the point," which of course is OK, especially as it reduces already impossible levels of demand.

Fenway is not supposed to be about amenities, parking, or lavatories. It's supposed to be about tradition, getting cheap home runs over the Wall and seeing the same Wall turn triples into singles, nooks and crannies, crowded Green line cars, the walk over the bridge on Brookline Av., and savoring a summer evening in the neighborhood. It's about knowing that this is where Denny Galehouse blew it, Ted Williams hit the home run in his last at-bat (you can see the same 420 sign in the video), the Sox held off the Twins and waited to hear they'd won the '67 pennant, Fisk and Bellhorn hit the poles, Ortiz hit two balls in extra-innings, and even that damn Bucky Dent.

It's a chance to reconnect with something our grandparents and their parents did, before America forgot what a neighborhood was and started deriving pleasure only from driving cars to places with questionable aesthetic and sociological value but ample parking. To me Fenway is pure heaven and I don't really enjoy the experience as much in all the new retro ballparks that have popped up trying to create what Fenway has had since the Taft administration. Fenway is not supposed to be about amenities, parking, or lavatories, and I thank God every day the current owners didn't toss the team's legacy in the trash when they came in. And this from a tall guy with knee problems who doesn't fit all that well in a lot of the seats.

I also love baseball itself and follow the game very closely when I'm there. I don't think I could ever really understand those places all across America where football, especially college football, is king. Nothing against the Pats but Fenway to me is a gem and a part of our nation's cultural heritage, while Gillette is a nondescript stadium with bigger bathrooms in the middle of a giant asphalt lot, and I don't really see the appeal all that much (except for tailgating, which is a lot of fun). New Garden, meh. At least there's a banner that was won there now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
1,795 posts, read 3,598,002 times
Reputation: 1432
I can see Fenway Park being tradition to some people, but in all honesty I can also see it as people don't like change and are afraid of change. I'm all for a new park, with more seats, more amenities, more parking, etc. I don't think holding onto the past is good. It just tells me people are scared of the unknown and to step out of there comfort zone, especially around here. At some point, Fenway will have to be replaced.

I do agree with an earlier post stating that it's pathetic for grown men to wear sports shirts every day. I see this on a daily basis and all these guys talk about is sports. Also, all these guys are not in healthy financial positions and not very bright. I don't think Fenway, or any sports stadium for that matter, are a place to reconnect. If those are the best memories of your younger life that is truly sad.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 08:23 PM
Status: "On my way to sunny South Carolina" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Massachusetts & Hilton Head, SC
9,915 posts, read 15,482,556 times
Reputation: 8525
I added a poll.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2008, 09:45 PM
 
182 posts, read 709,301 times
Reputation: 87
I was raised in MA and didnt get the red sox thing until I moved away. Its a nationally recognized icon that ties you to your roots. When you move away you appreciate all the unique things your old home had to offer. I have NEVER found baseball mania the way it is in Boston. I am VERY proud to be a part of such an enthusiastic group of people.
I only wish the red sox themselves aknowledged the fan love a bit more. Yeah, they say "I love my fans" for PR, and some of the wives run the marathon for charity, but really, I KNOW that playing at Fenway is different than playing in the other stadiums, and wish the players appreciated it a bit more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top