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What really confused us was to see a house close to what you described, nice but far from elegant (around 500,000, higher-end town) and then see some 1000 times worse looking at the same price. Husband says that those owners must be delusional to think they could sell their place at that price when there is a much nicer house at the same price nearby. Or again, maybe something wrong with the nicer looking house? We are not sure yet.
It may be that there's something "wrong" with the nicer-looking house (could be structural or just that it's near a highway or the block is not as attractive or something). It could be a difference in size of the house or the lot. It could be that the seller of the other house has a goal in mind to cover a mortgage or other debts and is hoping/holding out for a price that's not justified based on "comparables." Some sellers are borderline delusional, particularly if they're feeling desperate. No real way to tell without actually looking at homes and getting all the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa
As for what you said on class differences in Boston, I very much anticipate this, I think it has many similarities with Europe, overall.
Having lived under two fundamentally different socio-economic systems [REAL socialism (not Obama socialism ) and capitalism], and on two fundamentally different continents (Old World and New World) it is downright fascinating for me to see how class distinctions play out and acquire different meanings under each system. I don't think there is any European who does not have a very deep awareness (be it subconscious) of the power of class divisions, whether they lived in the west or in the socialist/communist Eastern block.
So I can definitely understand what is happening in New Englad.
Agreed. It's always interesting to me how much the "Horatio Alger" idea appears to have taken hold in the South, given that the South has had a fairly rigid class system, replete with cotillions and all, for almost four hundred years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa
When my husband suggested that perhaps we would have been better off in a really cosmopolitan and open place like DC (not that we have any choice right now), I said a definite no. Had I had a choice, I would still have chosen Boston.
If the Boston area is the only urban center in America where you can still meet "locals" with a sense of roots, with extended families nearby, and even the cozy experience of a lifelong, stable "local clique", I would like to live there. Not in order for us to try to infiltrate ourselves into one of those local cliques, but because, in my experience, such places acquire a certain spirit and a degree of "human-ness" hard to find in rootless and cosmopolitan places like DC, where gregarious but fleeting strangers never get to infuse the place with a sense of belonging. Overly cosmopolitan places give me the sensation of living in an eternal summer camp, where things will always be temporary.
We hope to be able to visit Boston in a few weeks and I look forward to it.
Having lived in DC on three separate occasions, I agree entirely. In the alley behind the block on which I lived, most of the parked cars had plates from every state in the union since the DC "residents" were transients just passing through. There is a lot that I like about the DC area, but that lack of a rooted local identity was something I could not get used to.
While Boston is definitely one of the best examples of a unique American place where many people have a strong sense of roots, it's not the only one. New York City (which makes Boston look affordable), despite all the transplants, has a very strong local core, particularly on the periphery. Philadelphia and Baltimore also to a large extent, and Chicago (though the midwestern sensibility is quite different from what you find in the northeast).
I recall, when living in DC some time ago, an article about people living between DC and Baltimore and pulled in both directions. Some people professed to prefer Baltimore, and at that time I couldn't understand why. DC was beautiful and cosmopolitan; Baltimore wasn't. Over the next couple of years I came to know Baltimore better and, while it's a city with many problems, I came to appreciate both the interesting and beautiful areas within the city and the rooted hometown feel that I found missing in DC.
Our last Attorney General raised three kids in a three-decker in Oak Square, Brighton. Never wasted time looking for the perfect house, just got on with life. His modesty freed him to pursue a career in public service, and to act as an uncorruptable check on such predators as Whitey Bulger and Cardinal Law.
If more people in Boston had his attitude this would be a better place.
Here's the bad: if you are moving here from the south, you should prepare yourself for the high cost of living. Your expendable cash will experience a downward turn! We moved here from the south about 3 years ago, so I speak from experience. In my opinion, it would be hard to live comfortably in Newton on $170K income. Home prices are still high there, as you have seen. And most people in Newton (& most places) are equally well-educated as yourself, so it doesn't really give you an advantage.
Here's the good: if you are lucky, you will find that there's a tradeoff for the toll it takes on your wallet.
MA is a beautiful state, you are within several hours of 100's of fabulous destinations, and the people here make up for a lot of the difference. True, we had more "money" in Texas...but now we can visit half a dozen states for day trips, or spend the day in Boston, or drive to Maine for the afternoon (or Martha's Vineyard/Nantucket!). The quality of our life has improved, even though we have less cash. And for us, it's resulted in a major paradigm shift...which is a good thing. And when I said "if you're lucky", what I meant is that I hope you will find, like we did, a great circle of real people to call your friends. The friends we've made here in 3 years are people I know will be true friends for the rest of our lives, no matter where we live. In my book, no amount of money can buy that. Best of luck in your search for a new home & life!
We have been doing quite a bit of real estate Internet search in the Boston area over the past couple of weeks and there is one thing that just doesn't add up for me. Or it does, but just wanted a confirmation in this regard.
I have read many posts on this forum referring to towns like Newton, Lexington, Andover, Weston, Concord, etc as relatively "pricey" places where upper-middle class professionals live. These are all considered to have very good school districts and the whole nine yards. Exactly who are these "upper-middle" class professionals supposed to be?
Well, doctors, lawyers, college professors, CEO-s and other types with graduate degrees - I read.
Both my husband and I have graduate degrees - one PhD and 3 Master's degrees between the two of us (one of the Masters coming from an Ivy League institution). One of us works in the financial services sector, the other is a college professor. My husband is looking at a roughly 100,000 dollars salary for the position that will take us there (I know, nothing to write home about in the NE, but better than laid off in the south). And assuming that I would be able to obtain an academic position there, we might count on adding another 60,000 - 70,000 to the family income by the time we are ready to buy.
That would make a total of 170,000 dollars maximum gross family income (and this would be in an ideal world, where I would manage to line something up too).
Now, with this money, professionals like us (grad degrees and all the jazz) would not even dream of thinking about towns such as the ones mentioned above. I do understand that professionals like doctors and lawyers make more money than "the likes of us". However, do all college professors in those areas have spouses making hundreds of dollars a year?
Because the starting salary for a college professor/lecturer in the Northeast is only slightly higher than same in the South or elsewhere. It is not that in the South I was making 50,000 a year and in the Northeast, I would be making 200,000.
So the question would be: how can people who work for a living (meaning they have "salaries" instead of being independently wealthy) live in million dollar plus houses? Because this is pretty much all I see in those towns. The few houses I saw at 500,000 and below, something we could conceivably squeeze in with me having a job too, were the kind of houses that would require fierce snobbery to put up with the ugly, petty, run down factor in exchange for getting into an "It" town.
Is it possible that these are mainly people who put some heavy family inheritance as down payment and then mortgage the rest of the cost?
Unfortunately, we are the kind of professionals that cannot count on any "family grants" for hefty down payments.
All in all, I just wonder where college professors and professionals that are NOT doctors/lawyers/CEO-s and who DO NOT have wealthy families - live?
The short answer is "not those towns", at least if they're not bringing considerable equity from a previous home. You listed some of the most expensive towns in the state and, at least for now, those places remain inaccessible for people of even your considerable means. There are a lot of other more affordable places to live, though, but the schools won't be as highly ranked or they won't be as close to the city, but you might end up liking those towns even more than you would the top-ranked towns you were looking at originally. Instead of Lexington you could look in Acton; instead of Newton there's Needham (although even Needham is pretty pricy); instead of Lexington there's Arlington. Don't get caught up in this notion that only a handful of the very best towns are acceptable because there are a lot of great towns.
To answer your other question--where do the people who live in these towns get all their money? I think some of them have lived there long enough that prices have risen well above what they would otherwise be able to afford. Others just make an awful lot of money, although exactly how they refuse to tell me.
As an aside, at what point did having a PhD become associated with being wealthy? MBA, JD, MD, sure, but PhD?
On my end, it's not frustration with you or anything you've said, so much as confusion about what kind of home you want. I'm just trying to understand what homes you've looked at that looked so miserable and unhealthy.
It's certainly true, as everyone on here has stated, that homes cost more here than a comparable home would in Atlanta or most other U.S. metropolitan areas. But I took a look at a couple of real estate sites and saw a number of homes that looked nice, while not opulent, for well under $600K (and in some cases well under $500K) in some of the higher-end towns around here.
No prison windows or ceilings men would rub their heads against. I'm 6'3" and I can't recall being in any house in New England built after about 1800 in which I've been at risk to bump my head. I can't speak to the plumbing, but a lot of the older houses here are made with considerably better construction materials than the big new ones in Atlanta.
Interestingly enough, while New England wealth has a tendency not to flaunt it, I think the Boston area is one of the few places in America that really does have a strong sense of class. In the old days, the class difference was often accompanied by a difference in ethnicity, religion, and immigration status. The 19th century Brahmins may not have been "tacky" about wealth, but they managed to make clear who had wealth and power around here, and significant resentments were created.
To this day, there is (if not outright resentment) an awareness of "class" differences. You can see it in the pages of the Boston Herald, or the historic conception of the east and west sides of South Boston, or South Boston v. Boston proper, or some attitudes in Waltham about Newton or Lexington, or the Winchester-Woburn football rivalry. Historically, these issues were at the forefront and played a big role in the development of insular working-class enclaves and local political alliances. In that respect, as in many others, Boston occupies the ground between Europe and the "rest of America."
Good to see a post that addresses the issue of class awareness. All the talk about the wealthy in this area not flaunting their wealth in a flashy material fashion might give the mistaken impression that people here ignore class differences, which is certainly not the case. However, the ways in which the distinctions between classes are made may be a bit more subtle here than they might often be in areas where the rich tend more to flash a lot of material possessions.
I have a feeling that this greater subtlety in class distinctions is another similarity to Europe. Just be careful not to expect a place exactly like Europe. Boston is an American city, and what you should be expecting is a place more reminiscent of Europe than many other parts of the U.S. Reminiscent but not the same.
In my opinion, it would be hard to live comfortably in Newton on $170K income.
Lorilou,
Thank you for your honest input. Part of it sounds wonderful and part of it scares the living lights out of me (the above).
So I will ask all those who might care to spare their 2 cents, to confirm or disagree with your statement above, based on their experience. My husband's salary will be slightly under 100,000 and I hope to eventually find a college-level position that might contribute another 50,000-60,000 to the family income, but I do not anticipate any more than that, any time soon.
And assuming that I would be able to obtain an academic position there, we might count on adding another 60,000 - 70,000 to the family income by the time we are ready to buy.
However, do all college professors in those areas have spouses making hundreds of dollars a year?
Because the starting salary for a college professor/lecturer in the Northeast is only slightly higher than same in the South or elsewhere. It is not that in the South I was making 50,000 a year and in the Northeast, I would be making 200,000.
Lots of good input already, but I can add a couple things. First, I'm assuming that you'll attempt to find lecturer position at one of the universities. Even if you find such a position, it will not pay anywhere near $50k-60k unless someone is doing you a huge favor - think half that amount instead. Despite the large number of schools, Boston is just about the most competitive market for an academic in the US. You'll have to beat out spousal hires and recent graduates who are willing to work for almost nothing. And like you, they all have Ph.D.s and it will likely come from one of the excellent local schools, which also means they're already networked and know the lay of the land. All the departments I know who hire lecturers regularly hire their recent grads, Ph.D. and bachelor's, or someone from a nearby school - no exceptions. Candidates will not only come from Boston, but from as far away as DC, Baltimore, Philly, NY, New Haven, Providence, etc. - you're competing against a very deep and well-educated pool full of people who want to stay in the Northeast corridor because of family or whatnot. (You have to understand that the Boston-DC corridor is really one big megapolis with many academics commuting back and forth by train). You might get lucky if your field is relatively in demand, like teaching a language, or it might be next to impossible if you do something like English or History. If you do get hired and make yourself indispensible, you might move up to senior lecturer and make close to what you're thinking, but that might not happen for ten years if at all.
Second, I wouldn't consider anything below ~$250k/year upper-middle class in the more expensive US metros - Boston, NY, DC, SF, LA, etc. As someone mentioned, the academics living in the towns you listed are in lucrative disciplines (law, medicine, etc.), at the top of their field (chaired profs), bought years ago, or even a combination of these. An assistant professor starts making at least $70k-80k these days in these expensive metros. For non-academics, it's not that difficult making something in that bracket coming out with a master's or even a bachelor's. So $150k/year households are not that uncommon. If you end up making this much, you will live comfortably but not lavishly, and you will not get an ideal home based on what I sense to be your target zone. The location, condition, or size will have to be compromised in some way. If you make $100k, you can have a family and live the American Dream, but that's about it. Unless you have outside resources, you will not be owning an average house in Lexington, Newton, or even Cambridge.
Lots of good input already, but I can add a couple things. First, I'm assuming that you'll attempt to find lecturer position at one of the universities. Even if you find such a position, it will not pay anywhere near $50k-60k unless someone is doing you a huge favor - think half that amount instead. Despite the large number of schools, Boston is just about the most competitive market for an academic in the US. You'll have to beat out spousal hires and recent graduates who are willing to work for almost nothing. And like you, they all have Ph.D.s and it will likely come from one of the excellent local schools, which also means they're already networked and know the lay of the land. All the departments I know who hire lecturers regularly hire their recent grads, Ph.D. and bachelor's, or someone from a nearby school - no exceptions. Candidates will not only come Boston, but from as far away as DC, Baltimore, Philly, NY, New Haven, Providence, etc. - you're competing against a very deep and well-educated pool full of people who want to stay in the Northeast corridor. (You have to understand that the Boston-DC corridor is really one big megapolis with many academics commuting back and forth by train). You might get lucky if your field is relatively in demand, like teaching a language, or it might be next to impossible if you do something like English or History. If you do get hired and make yourself indispensible, you might move up to senior lecturer and make close to what you're thinking, but that might not happen for ten years if at all.
Second, I wouldn't consider anything below ~$250k/year upper-middle class in the more expensive US metros - Boston, NY, DC, SF, LA, etc. As someone mentioned, the academics living in the towns you listed are in lucrative disciplines (law, medicine, etc.), at the top of their field (chaired profs), bought years ago, or even a combination of these. An assistant professor starts making at least $70k-80k these days in these expensive metros. For non-academics, it's not that difficult making something in that bracket coming out with a master's or even a bachelor's. So $150k/year households are not that uncommon. If you end up making this much, you will live comfortably but not lavishly, and you will not get an ideal home based on what I sense to be your target zone. The location, condition, or size will have to be compromised in some way. If you make $100k, you can have a family and live the American Dream, but that's about it. Unless you have outside resources, you will not be owning an average house in Lexington, Newton, or even Cambridge.
Good luck.
OK, thanks. Will be shown to husband who is evidently way more optimistic about the whole thing than he should be. But well, he just modified his employment status from "layed off" (in Atlanta) to "hired" (in Boston), so can't blame him.
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Originally Posted by Cato the Elder
... or it might be next to impossible if you do something like English or History.
Do I sound like I do English?...
As for the "Dream"... I miss the European One. Yeah, we have a dream too...
Forgot to add, where do the academics making $150k or less live? Many rent in places like Somerville, Medford, Jamaica Plain, Woburn, etc. By the time their kids are ready for school, they are persumably making more money and either buy in these areas and send their kids to private schools, or buy in places like Arlington, Winchester, etc, depending on how much better they're doing. Another option is a place outside the 128 beltway - farther, but generally better schools.
As an aside, at what point did having a PhD become associated with being wealthy? MBA, JD, MD, sure, but PhD?
Initially, many people on these boards mentioned college professors in those "middle-upper" class areas. Nobody referred to them as "wealthy areas". They also did not specify WHAT KIND of college professors (old, chairs, and with family inheritance). Ah.
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) and capitalism], and on two fundamentally different continents (Old World and New World) it is downright fascinating for me to see how class distinctions play out and acquire different meanings under each system. I don't think there is any European who does not have a very deep awareness (be it subconscious) of the power of class divisions, whether they lived in the west or in the socialist/communist Eastern block. 
