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I grew up in PA, so APT, I do thank you for the Commonwealth of PA for the kind words. I love Pennsylvanians, too. Especially the small town folks.
However, after living in MA (outside of Holyoke) for a number of years, I don't think that the MA natives are truly rude. They are just accustomed to being more reserved and may appear stand-offish at first blush.
But, some of the most hospitable and kind people I have ever known were the people right in my MA town. Very accommodating and friendly.
I worked for the town government so was exposed to the public daily. They were folks with complaints and sad stories of snow plows ruining their lives, but on the whole it was a lovely place to live.
I now live in N. GA and would return to MA in a heartbeat if given a chance. DH has determined that he wants to spend our retirement years in the south. So, I must once again adapt to a new culture, but I think I have Patriot's blood running in my veins!
If you come back for a visit Gem you better let me and Crazy know!
I'm from the Northeast;lived there many years. I lived in Florida and now in the Southwest. It's a really interesting issue--people's ideas/perceptions about who's "friendly" and who's not, as well as which states have which characteristics.
I think it really comes down to one's own perceptions and what "comfortable and friendly" is to that particular person who's evaluating it--in other words, it's totally subjective, there's just nothing objective about it.
I find the Northeast the most "comfortable." The people are genuine, sincere and authentic in a general sense, not everybody. There's more of a "down to earth" approach and common sense attitude. "Grounded," I could say.
New England, we lived near W. Mass./Conn./Vt.--people are more reserved, but I found them very decent people. Hard-working, logical, practical and helpful. Just because people aren't saying "Hi, how are you'? doesn't mean anything. They're cautious and evaluationg things. They don't just jump in to anything--including relationships. They need to warm up and be ready, on their time.
Florida, but more the South in general, I find very non-friendly. Sorry, I don't buy the stereotype of "southern hospitality." Southerners are generally very friendly people--if you're one of them or another Southerner. Not all--I've met some wonderful people from all over, just my take on it, in general.
The Southwest, whewie. There's the "hello's, and the like. Non-substantiative talk that's everywhere. I guess most people think that's "friendly." There's a real lack of groundedness, for lack of a better word. It's the "I'm here for now" kind of feeling--fleeting and gone in a moment. Some people find that appealing. It's talk just to talk a few moments of really nothing! More smiles out here. For what that's worth.
It kinda depends on what attributes you value in people. Individual.
Interesting topic because you can take 12 people and put them in the same state/area and get 12 different opinions.
Although, some people were helpful.. sure, some were very genuine, but NO ONE WOULD EVER start a conversation about their personal life, unless you were a long-time friend, relative, or direct family member.
What exactly is wrong with this? Frankly, I think it's far more inappropriate and rude of "too-friendly" strangers who touch me like they've known me their entire life, readily tell me their intimate family secrets, and various medical problems within a minute of meeting them. People like you come across as trying too hard to be liked, phony, and insincere.
I'm thankful for New Englander's reservedness and their sense of personal space, privacy, and decorum. They haven't been "Oprah-ized" like the rest of the country has been. Asking personal questions that's none of their damn business is out of the question for them. And thank God for it. I love New England and its classy inhabitants. I wish the rest of the dumbed-down country were more like them.
As for the left turners my guess is you drive fast. Or have a habit of not braking until you are close to another vehicle. I could be wrong... but other than the occasional suicide left turner, who may not even be from here dont forget, I find people and traffic to generally do what theyre supposed to do here. And I mean as far as by the book driving. It is true the general rule is dont stop. Go slow if ya have to- but dont stop.
Im not sure how long you've been here but I know our rythem can take a while to sink in. After living in Georgia a few years when I would come home I would have the worst time knowing when to yield, knowing when someone was yielding, timing turns, judging other cars' speeds... but it came back.
Again... LA, Virginia, and DC- not really much in common with here. We have no median in 99% of our roads. There is rarely a right turning lane either. We dont allow U-turns very often. Traffic is a unique flow around here. But considering we dont have those "luxuries" as I consider them, I think we flow pretty darn well myself. I wish we had medians or even U-turns. Then I would have to drive an extra mile or two to turn around on roads like Rte- 1 in Mass, or 146 in Rhode Island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by puffle
Well since this thread won't die I will add my two cents. I love everything about Ma. except the drivers. Everyday I encounter a life threatening situation with someone that wants to play chicken whether it is turning left right in front of me when it is my turn to go forward or someone coming out of a driveway and turning in front of me going the opposite way. Today I got honked at for stopping at a red light
I get the feeling that there is no drivers ed here and that most people might have taken a written test only. This is the only rudeness that I have encountered and I have driven in Los Angeles most of my life including D.C., and Virginia and Ma. takes the cake on stupidity with driving. I loathe the day my son is allowed to drive here
Right on! Man I wish everyone had your common sense! Thank God!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix lady
I'm from the Northeast;lived there many years. I lived in Florida and now in the Southwest. It's a really interesting issue--people's ideas/perceptions about who's "friendly" and who's not, as well as which states have which characteristics.
I think it really comes down to one's own perceptions and what "comfortable and friendly" is to that particular person who's evaluating it--in other words, it's totally subjective, there's just nothing objective about it.
I find the Northeast the most "comfortable." The people are genuine, sincere and authentic in a general sense, not everybody. There's more of a "down to earth" approach and common sense attitude. "Grounded," I could say.
New England, we lived near W. Mass./Conn./Vt.--people are more reserved, but I found them very decent people. Hard-working, logical, practical and helpful. Just because people aren't saying "Hi, how are you'? doesn't mean anything. They're cautious and evaluationg things. They don't just jump in to anything--including relationships. They need to warm up and be ready, on their time.
Florida, but more the South in general, I find very non-friendly. Sorry, I don't buy the stereotype of "southern hospitality." Southerners are generally very friendly people--if you're one of them or another Southerner. Not all--I've met some wonderful people from all over, just my take on it, in general.
The Southwest, whewie. There's the "hello's, and the like. Non-substantiative talk that's everywhere. I guess most people think that's "friendly." There's a real lack of groundedness, for lack of a better word. It's the "I'm here for now" kind of feeling--fleeting and gone in a moment. Some people find that appealing. It's talk just to talk a few moments of really nothing! More smiles out here. For what that's worth.
It kinda depends on what attributes you value in people. Individual.
Interesting topic because you can take 12 people and put them in the same state/area and get 12 different opinions.
My husband and I moved to New England in December 2007 from Guam. Prior to that we lived in Washington state. We absolutely LOVE the people of New England - and yes, that includes Bostonians. Sure, city folks may come across rude at times, but I believe it's more a matter of the hustle and bustle of city life and keeping things short and sweet.
We've made great friends here and love the fact that they are sincere people who may keep you at arms length at first, but after the initial "getting to know" each other phase, you become like family to them. Thank God for New Englanders! We love em!
As for the left turners my guess is you drive fast. Or have a habit of not braking until you are close to another vehicle. I could be wrong... but other than the occasional suicide left turner, who may not even be from here dont forget, I find people and traffic to generally do what theyre supposed to do here. And I mean as far as by the book driving. It is true the general rule is dont stop. Go slow if ya have to- but dont stop.
Im not sure how long you've been here but I know our rythem can take a while to sink in. After living in Georgia a few years when I would come home I would have the worst time knowing when to yield, knowing when someone was yielding, timing turns, judging other cars' speeds... but it came back.
Again... LA, Virginia, and DC- not really much in common with here. We have no median in 99% of our roads. There is rarely a right turning lane either. We dont allow U-turns very often. Traffic is a unique flow around here. But considering we dont have those "luxuries" as I consider them, I think we flow pretty darn well myself. I wish we had medians or even U-turns. Then I would have to drive an extra mile or two to turn around on roads like Rte- 1 in Mass, or 146 in Rhode Island.
Actually what I was talking about was my sitting at a red light waiting patiently to go straight when it turns green and when I am first in line trying to do just that the person from the opposite side makes a quick left turn right in front of me as I proceed to go forward on the green. No speeding and no sudden braking...just sitting at a light waiting to go forward, safely.
Tis true, Im sorry, but we are cold up here. I do like the south, I like the friendliness...it is so apparent that we are not "warm" up here...we dont even look each other in the eye when we pass on the sidewalk. Its an odd thing. I just got back from Nashville/Memphis and am thiniking of moving there.
Very interesting thread. I grew up in the South, lived and worked in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, New York, and also in continental Europe, plus many shorter trips all over. Now I am in Eastern Massachusetts. I don't want to come in here telling everyone how much everyone and everything sucks, because that isn't fair, but honestly, folks, there are many issues that make this a rather hostile / unpleasant environment, and while some I think are not really anyone's "fault" - young people especially can't help it if this is the example they're given - and others are issues of personal preference, some truly are a result of bad behavior that can and should change. Anyway, my list:
THE GOOD
* I can count on directness and honesty from more people, and also less fluff to go along; I don't mind if someone just tells me what's what, not in a rude manner, but getting to the point. I also don't mind if folks are reserved, and I do mind that, in the South (also saw this in Ohio / the midwest for *sure*), we really do have an issue with people going for the appearance of "niceness" over all else. This is absolutely not the case for everyone - I have a number of friends there who are extremely genuine, and Southern hospitality is a reality as well - but there are more people at both ends of the spectrum in the South, in terms of both being super-welcoming and really superficial (got a taste of the latter in LA as well, blech - again, not everyone, but it exists, let's not kid ourselves), and I would judge that particular balance down there as being on the whole positive, even if there are many things I don't care for about the region.
* I really like the fact that the politics are more progressive, and that there are so many educated people and institutions of higher learning around, not to mention that there is a lot of culture in this area - not to mention many excellent places to eat.
* The traffic is horrible, *but* I will say this - it generally moves. They are very fast about getting accidents taken care of, and given the insanity of the drivers, I am always amazed that there are as few accidents on the highways as there are. In contrast, I remember in semi-rural Ohio there was at least one (low-speed, stupid and totally avoidable) accident a week on the 2 mile route I used to drive to work...
* The history, the excellent sports teams, a proper newspaper, excellent public radio and public television, and the proximity to a variety of terrain and natural areas, all of that is very nice as well, not to mention the ability of the region to draw big names for events.
* Walking around Boston - this is quite nice, Boston Commons is a treat, and the architecture downtown is cool to see. I don't get there too much, but when I'm not driving, I generally enjoy myself...
THE BAD
* People are not nearly as social as they could be. In some cases this is clearly due to them being tenative - that's fine, I have no problem with that, it was like this in Europe, and it's no problem for me if it takes a while to develop a genuine friendship - I can wait. If people don't jump on me and start making small-talk, I'm not bothered. What I do have an issue with is the lack of respect that too many people show, not to mention self-centeredness and an unwillingess to attempt to understand anything or anyone from even slightly outside of their immediate surroundings and experience. I can only speculate as to the reasons for all of this, but even when we or others go our of our way to be social, some people seem to be wholly incapable of responding in kind. I'm not just talking about social events, I know coworkers don't even seem to be capable of replying to a simple "Hello" or even making eye contact when we pass one another, which is just *weird* (I am not the only transplant at my workplace to have noticed this). Absolutely not everyone is like that - I have met many really nice people here as well - but I do find the bad behavior I mention above to be more common here than any place else I have spent any time, I do think it's a personal choice (some people are obviously proud of their ability to treat others like crap / be as provincial as possible, i.e. nationalism but on a local level, others very obviously just don't care), and I don't find it excusable. I'm not expecting a love-fest every time I see someone, but we need to get back to a time where being well-educated means not only knowing how to behave in a respectful manner towards others but actually *applying* that knowledge as the rule, not the exception (a lot of these people should really know better, as far as I'm concerned) - rather than just developing work skills or earning a degree. If anyone still needs insight into the attitude I'm talking about, by the way, just read this:
...and try to wrap your head around the idea that what one man dubiously defines as "tradition" should relieve the 4.5 million people in the area of the responsibility of having to think about the way they treat anyone whose parents weren't born there. Most Americans would be proud to say they grew out of this sort of behavior in middle school - this guy would have us define a whole city by it, and unfortunately it's all too clear that he's not alone, and that this idea is not isolated to Boston.
* Driving here sucks. Parking here sucks. Navigating here sucks. OK, I have been in places where the drivers were almost as bad, and where the roads were almost as confusing - Pittsburgh is rough for instance, and driving in New Jersey / near NYC is exciting too - but this habit of urban planning by former cowpath and marking every side street and public alley but refusing to mark the main street on which one is driving is *infuriating* and extremely hostile to anyone coming here (and don't give me that "then don't come here" crap, lose the attitude and join the human race...). Not all the drivers are M*ssholes, but they are a large enough minority to make driving here much more stressful than anywhere else I have been. I am getting used to it, slowly, but that's not to say I enjoy it, and I am honestly getting concerned about the long-term health effects of being stressed out all the time I'm on the road. Yes, being near Boston is a big reason for this, but it's not just Boston - to those who live in New Hampshire and commute, for instance, Route 3 is *not* the Indy 500, and to the cops, staties, and whoever else is reading, get your act together and start pulling over people doing 75+ in a 55 zone or raise the freakin' speed limit! I agree, it's stupid that it's that low, but change it or make at least some attempt to enforce it...
* The cost of living is ludicrous, even well outside of Boston, to the point where I honestly don't know how so many people survive here. This may very well contribute to some of the attitude I'm seeing, and in that sense I guess I can understand it, even if I don't accept it... Likewise, so many times the only choices available appear to be to live in the ghetto or to live in a McMansion in what is more or less a gated community without the gates. I guess it's like that all over to some extent, but try finding a modern, well-built, reasonably sized house with convenient access (i.e. via walking or public transport - we need to stop driving everywhere all the time, people, I should not have to start my engine to get a quart of milk) to the bare necessities, much less an actual pedestrian-friendly city center, and it's damn near impossible.
* I mentioned that I like the progressive politics. At the same time, and I am truly dismayed to say this, having been left-leaning all of my life, I now understand why people elsewhere have such a dim view of "Massachusetts Liberals". The sheer inefficiency, incompetence, and corruption exhibited by the state government here is absolutely unbelievable. I have never been in a place that was so rich and at the same time in such a shambles. The roads are a mess, power outages are more common than when I lived in the lightning-strike capital of the world, and I've had my water turn brown with no warning half a dozen times over just a few years, I guess because of construction, not that the authorities ever made any effort to let us know what was going on or whether we should be worried... Funding of public education is a lot worse than I expected it would be, and at the rate they repair the infrastructure here, we're well on our way to having the place look like a third world country in my lifetime. Public transportation exists - that's about the extent to which I can compliment it, especially outside of Boston, though it's sad there as well if you know what efficient public transportation looks like... As a rule here it's antiquated and inconvenient, and the idiots running it don't seem to have figured out that you actually need it to be either cheaper or faster than driving in order for people to use it and address the traffic issue here. Just look at the Big Dig - most expensive public works project *ever*, and not only does it leak, some moron decided to use substandard glue to hold multi-ton concrete ceiling panels in, and after years of indications that this was a really, really bad idea, they collapse, someone dies, and...we still have the same crappy glue holding up the same multi-ton concrete plates, and no one has gone (or will go) to jail for it! It's pathetic, frankly, and for the first time in my life I truly do feel like I'm being robbed when I pay my state income taxes. This is where that lack of perspective from having ever left the place is really killing - if more people here only knew what it was like elsewhere, they might start demanding that certain things change a little more loudly.
I am truly grateful that my family and I have found a place to live and work here, and there are many things, not to mention people, that I genuinely like and appreciate. I think part of my problem is that I had high expectations of Massachusetts, given that it is a rich state with a well-educated populace. Likewise, some of the issues I raise are significant problems throughout much of the country. Still, there is no question that there are some real issues in Massachusetts that really do need to be addressed. I don't mean to put any folks from Massachsuetts on the defensive, likely most of the ones sufficiently interested in entering this discussion are not the ones who cause problems, but I know you folks value honesty and directness, so here it is. To all others, something to be aware of if you're thinking about moving here. Best,
Arc_Light
Last edited by Arc_Light; 08-14-2008 at 01:35 AM..
Very interesting thread. I grew up in the South, lived and worked in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, New York, and also in continental Europe, plus many shorter trips all over. Now I am in Eastern Massachusetts. I don't want to come in here telling everyone how much everyone and everything sucks, because that isn't fair, but honestly, folks, there are many issues that make this a rather hostile / unpleasant environment, and while some I think are not really anyone's "fault" - young people especially can't help it if this is the example they're given - and others are issues of personal preference, some truly are a result of bad behavior that can and should change. Anyway, my list:
THE GOOD
* I can count on directness and honesty from more people, and also less fluff to go along; I don't mind if someone just tells me what's what, not in a rude manner, but getting to the point. I also don't mind if folks are reserved, and I do mind that, in the South (also saw this in Ohio / the midwest for *sure*), we really do have an issue with people going for the appearance of "niceness" over all else. This is absolutely not the case for everyone - I have a number of friends there who are extremely genuine, and Southern hospitality is a reality as well - but there are more people at both ends of the spectrum in the South, in terms of both being super-welcoming and really superficial (got a taste of the latter in LA as well, blech - again, not everyone, but it exists, let's not kid ourselves), and I would judge that particular balance down there as being on the whole positive, even if there are many things I don't care for about the region.
* I really like the fact that the politics are more progressive, and that there are so many educated people and institutions of higher learning around, not to mention that there is a lot of culture in this area - not to mention many excellent places to eat.
* The traffic is horrible, *but* I will say this - it generally moves. They are very fast about getting accidents taken care of, and given the insanity of the drivers, I am always amazed that there are as few accidents on the highways as there are. In contrast, I remember in semi-rural Ohio there was at least one (low-speed, stupid and totally avoidable) accident a week on the 2 mile route I used to drive to work...
* The history, the excellent sports teams, a proper newspaper, excellent public radio and public television, and the proximity to a variety of terrain and natural areas, all of that is very nice as well, not to mention the ability of the region to draw big names for events.
* Walking around Boston - this is quite nice, Boston Commons is a treat, and the architecture downtown is cool to see. I don't get there too much, but when I'm not driving, I generally enjoy myself...
THE BAD
* People are not nearly as social as they could be. In some cases this is clearly due to them being tenative - that's fine, I have no problem with that, it was like this in Europe, and it's no problem for me if it takes a while to develop a genuine friendship - I can wait. If people don't jump on me and start making small-talk, I'm not bothered. What I do have an issue with is the lack of respect that too many people show, not to mention self-centeredness and an unwillingess to attempt to understand anything or anyone from even slightly outside of their immediate surroundings and experience. I can only speculate as to the reasons for all of this, but even when we or others go our of our way to be social, some people seem to be wholly incapable of responding in kind. I'm not just talking about social events, I know coworkers don't even seem to be capable of replying to a simple "Hello" or even making eye contact when we pass one another, which is just *weird* (I am not the only transplant at my workplace to have noticed this). Absolutely not everyone is like that - I have met many really nice people here as well - but I do find the bad behavior I mention above to be more common here than any place else I have spent any time, I do think it's a personal choice (some people are obviously proud of their ability to treat others like crap / be as provincial as possible, i.e. nationalism but on a local level, others very obviously just don't care), and I don't find it excusable. I'm not expecting a love-fest every time I see someone, but we need to get back to a time where being well-educated means not only knowing how to behave in a respectful manner towards others but actually *applying* that knowledge as the rule, not the exception (a lot of these people should really know better, as far as I'm concerned) - rather than just developing work skills or earning a degree. If anyone still needs insight into the attitude I'm talking about, by the way, just read this:
...and try to wrap your head around the idea that what one man dubiously defines as "tradition" should relieve the 4.5 million people in the area of the responsibility of having to think about the way they treat anyone whose parents weren't born there. Most Americans would be proud to say they grew out of this sort of behavior in middle school - this guy would have us define a whole city by it, and unfortunately it's all too clear that he's not alone, and that this idea is not isolated to Boston.
* Driving here sucks. Parking here sucks. Navigating here sucks. OK, I have been in places where the drivers were almost as bad, and where the roads were almost as confusing - Pittsburgh is rough for instance, and driving in New Jersey / near NYC is exciting too - but this habit of urban planning by former cowpath and marking every side street and public alley but refusing to mark the main street on which one is driving is *infuriating* and extremely hostile to anyone coming here (and don't give me that "then don't come here" crap, lose the attitude and join the human race...). Not all the drivers are M*ssholes, but they are a large enough minority to make driving here much more stressful than anywhere else I have been. I am getting used to it, slowly, but that's not to say I enjoy it, and I am honestly getting concerned about the long-term health effects of being stressed out all the time I'm on the road. Yes, being near Boston is a big reason for this, but it's not just Boston - to those who live in New Hampshire and commute, for instance, Route 3 is *not* the Indy 500, and to the cops, staties, and whoever else is reading, get your act together and start pulling over people doing 75+ in a 55 zone or raise the freakin' speed limit! I agree, it's stupid that it's that low, but change it or make at least some attempt to enforce it...
* The cost of living is ludicrous, even well outside of Boston, to the point where I honestly don't know how so many people survive here. This may very well contribute to some of the attitude I'm seeing, and in that sense I guess I can understand it, even if I don't accept it... Likewise, so many times the only choices available appear to be to live in the ghetto or to live in a McMansion in what is more or less a gated community without the gates. I guess it's like that all over to some extent, but try finding a modern, well-built, reasonably sized house with convenient access (i.e. via walking or public transport - we need to stop driving everywhere all the time, people, I should not have to start my engine to get a quart of milk) to the bare necessities, much less an actual pedestrian-friendly city center, and it's damn near impossible.
* I mentioned that I like the progressive politics. At the same time, and I am truly dismayed to say this, having been left-leaning all of my life, I now understand why people elsewhere have such a dim view of "Massachusetts Liberals". The sheer inefficiency, incompetence, and corruption exhibited by the state government here is absolutely unbelievable. I have never been in a place that was so rich and at the same time in such a shambles. The roads are a mess, power outages are more common than when I lived in the lightning-strike capital of the world, and I've had my water turn brown with no warning half a dozen times over just a few years, I guess because of construction, not that the authorities ever made any effort to let us know what was going on or whether we should be worried... Funding of public education is a lot worse than I expected it would be, and at the rate they repair the infrastructure here, we're well on our way to having the place look like a third world country in my lifetime. Public transportation exists - that's about the extent to which I can compliment it, especially outside of Boston, though it's sad there as well if you know what efficient public transportation looks like... As a rule here it's antiquated and inconvenient, and the idiots running it don't seem to have figured out that you actually need it to be either cheaper or faster than driving in order for people to use it and address the traffic issue here. Just look at the Big Dig - most expensive public works project *ever*, and not only does it leak, some moron decided to use substandard glue to hold multi-ton concrete ceiling panels in, and after years of indications that this was a really, really bad idea, they collapse, someone dies, and...we still have the same crappy glue holding up the same multi-ton concrete plates, and no one has gone (or will go) to jail for it! It's pathetic, frankly, and for the first time in my life I truly do feel like I'm being robbed when I pay my state income taxes. This is where that lack of perspective from having ever left the place is really killing - if more people here only knew what it was like elsewhere, they might start demanding that certain things change a little more loudly.
I am truly grateful that my family and I have found a place to live and work here, and there are many things, not to mention people, that I genuinely like and appreciate. I think part of my problem is that I had high expectations of Massachusetts, given that it is a rich state with a well-educated populace. Likewise, some of the issues I raise are significant problems throughout much of the country. Still, there is no question that there are some real issues in Massachusetts that really do need to be addressed. I don't mean to put any folks from Massachsuetts on the defensive, likely most of the ones sufficiently interested in entering this discussion are not the ones who cause problems, but I know you folks value honesty and directness, so here it is. To all others, something to be aware of if you're thinking about moving here. Best,
Arc_Light
This is one of the best descriptions of the area I've seen!
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I love Pennsylvanians, too. Especially the small town folks.
, but on the whole it was a lovely place to live.
Good and bad...
