Flight: why do we run?

[tigerphan]

Some of those areas mentioned were unincorporated communities with good public schools and low taxes. The people who lived there were drawn to the area for that reason. The basis of the appeal of Hickory Hill or Cordova in those days were the schools, low taxes, and safety.

Then overnight, those people found themselves annexed into Memphis. They were instantly zoned to a Memphis city school. Overnight, they became subject to the highest property taxes in the state. These were not wealthy areas that could easily pay for private schools. They could stay and hope for the best or cut their losses and leave. Since the middle class's main source of wealth is their real estate investment, the ones that stayed were penalized financially in a catastrophic way.....and believe me when I say that a substantial number of people did stay and try to make the best of it. They got burned.

Criticize them if you want, but I will not belittle a family that is looking after their own best interests in a situation like that.

The lesson is that if you want to buy a home in the mid south, you had better either choose an established neighborhood in Memphis or one of the better independent, incorporated suburbs. I think the area along Poplar and Walnut/Wolf River in Memphis and out east through Germantown, Collierville, and into Piperton County is the safest investment in the region by far.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

You mean Fayette County right? Just a clarification for the casual observer.

[tigerphan]

Originally Posted by 85rx-7gsl-se

You mean Fayette County right? Just a clarification for the casual observer.

Right. My mistake. Piperton is IMO the eastern book end to the Poplar corridor. Generally anything between there into mid town Memphis is highly sought after real estate.

[sldream]

Originally Posted by tigerphan

Some of those areas mentioned were unincorporated communities with good public schools and low taxes. The people who lived there were drawn to the area for that reason. The basis of the appeal of Hickory Hill or Cordova in those days were the schools, low taxes, and safety.

Then overnight, those people found themselves annexed into Memphis. They were instantly zoned to a Memphis city school. Overnight, they became subject to the highest property taxes in the state. These were not wealthy areas that could easily pay for private schools. They could stay and hope for the best or cut their losses and leave. Since the middle class's main source of wealth is their real estate investment, the ones that stayed were penalized financially in a catastrophic way.....and believe me when I say that a substantial number of people did stay and try to make the best of it. They got burned.

Criticize them if you want, but I will not belittle a family that is looking after their own best interests in a situation like that.

The lesson is that if you want to buy a home in the mid south, you had better either choose an established neighborhood in Memphis or one of the better independent, incorporated suburbs. I think the area along Poplar and Walnut/Wolf River in Memphis and out east through Germantown, Collierville, and into Piperton County is the safest investment in the region by far.

The fallacy in this comment implies issues surrounding flight are limited to the mid south. Every city in the country has people that make their home buying decisions relative to their proximity to "good" schools (which in a lot of cases is highly subjective). This is mostly because there is available "promised land" for them to run or flee to. In places where land is not abundant or sprawl impossible, people are by necessity forced to come up with alternatives besides fleeing.

What this amounts to is given the choice to rethink/reorganize OR find greener pastures, a good number will pack up and flee provided there is opportunity to do so. This is a trait of "flight-minded" people as mentioned by a previous poster. Established neighborhoods don't start out established; they form when people decide to stay individually and make something better as a collective. Nothing is ever "established" by having a "temporary" or "grass is greener" ideology.


There is currently a demographic shift where millenials are now the majority of the population. This generation doesn't care nearly as much about living close to a particular school or long distances away from entertainment and other amenities in city centers. Even those with kids are making different choices compared to previous generations. They are deferring home and car ownership and prefer how renting in urban downtown areas aligns with their lifestyles.

This is why you're seeing the resurgence of urban populations and development as well as the diminished desire for huge enclosed shopping malls for example. Like many things in life, population shifts happen in waves and just as soon as the waves push things out, they wash things ashore just the same eventually.

[tigerphan]

Originally Posted by sldream

The fallacy in this comment implies issues surrounding flight are limited to the mid south. Every city in the country has people that make their home buying decisions relative to their proximity to "good" schools (which in a lot of cases is highly subjective). This is mostly because there is available "promised land" for them to run or flee to. In places where land is not abundant or sprawl impossible, people are by necessity forced to come up with alternatives besides fleeing.

What this amounts to is given the choice to rethink/reorganize OR find greener pastures, a good number will pack up and flee provided there is opportunity to do so. This is a trait of "flight-minded" people as mentioned by a previous poster.

Everywhere I've lived, force bussing, integration, and other well intentioned but poorly orchestrated federal policies started the explosion of suburban growth. I am not sure how you interpreted my statement as being limited to the mid south. This "culture of flight" you speak of is born out of a culture of well intentioned but heavy handed federal policies and fueled by even more poorly orchestrated federal policies (interstate highways and low cost lending).

It's clear that you abhor suburbanites....but I will not participate in a liberal circle jerk that serves no purpose but to deny the impact of terrible government policy on urban sprawl and to ridicule middle class families for looking after their own best interest. Middle and even upper income people leave urban areas like Memphis when they get older and have children. It is also happening to millennials as well when they finally become financially stable and start having children.

People who can't afford private schools or a major hit in their accumulated wealth via declining property values leave when things go south, and all too often, city leadership fails to recognize the mobility of capital and the fact that people can and do vote with their feet.

If you want to assign blame for sprawl, look to Washington DC and your city government....not to the people of Bartlett or Olive Branch.

[sldream]

Originally Posted by tigerphan

Everywhere I've lived, force bussing, integration, and other well intentioned but poorly orchestrated federal policies started the explosion of suburban growth. I am not sure how you interpreted my statement as being limited to the mid south. This "culture of flight" you speak of is born out of a culture of well intentioned but heavy handed federal policies and fueled by even more poorly orchestrated federal policies (interstate highways and low cost lending).

It's clear that you abhor suburbanites....but I will not participate in a liberal circle jerk that serves no purpose but to deny the impact of terrible government policy on urban sprawl and to ridicule middle class families for looking after their own best interest. Middle and even upper income people leave urban areas like Memphis when they get older and have children. It is also happening to millennials as well when they finally become financially stable and start having children.

People who can't afford private schools or a major hit in their accumulated wealth via declining property values leave when things go south, and all too often, city leadership fails to recognize the mobility of capital and the fact that people can and do vote with their feet.

If you want to assign blame for sprawl, look to Washington DC and your city government....not to the people of Bartlett or Olive Branch.

Those things mentioned as motivators may have fueled sprawl 50 years ago, but the same cannot be said for now. I don't dislikes suburbanites at all. I can tolerate people from all walks of life.

What's pretty annoying is when some people give all the same reasons to justify their decisions to move or rather migrate.

The typical flight pattern involves very modest, inexpensive homes, (there's one of those reasons there - more house for less money) that are most often not substantially built, compared to houses in metro areas built when actual craftsmen built them. So what you end up with is often average grade built homes with average interior features built to satisfy the masses as quickly and cheaply as possible.

To your point about diminished accumulated wealth resulting from declining property values; that's a mistake to think just buying a house gains entrance to the millionaires club. Most suburban tract houses lose value, especially since average made new houses eventually degenerate quickly, which the introduction of HOAs was/is supposed to mitigate but eventually just makes it just a matter of time before it goes south via mismanagement or families fleeing again.

The tax (or rather RATE) issue as has been discussed previously is flawed as well because the difference in the actual tax on inexpensive tact homes in many suburban areas ends up being maybe a couple thousand dollars (using Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham, Dallas, Atlanta as benchmarks) and thus becomes null once the cost to drive to work everyday or do anything else the big city has to offer, along with paying for trash collection and HOA fees.

And yes SOME millenials are moving out of urban areas depending on their needs but the days are long gone when you're expected to automatically move to the burbs when you get married and have kids. Look at any major metro area and see where people who are funding development are spending most of it. More apartments built in urban areas with the millenials in mind are coming up fast. And here in downtown Memphis and inner city Nashville for example, they are not cheap. These people moving in are choosing to live where they can walk or ride their bikes to places. They want to bring children up in more diverse environments and see the world outside of a gated community. They want access to something other than McDonald's and Chili's.

This was just insight to add to the discussion of why people run not a personal attack. Times are not the same as you remember them.