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Hickory Hill
I totally disagree with your description of Hickory Hill as a "black suburb". This may have been the case 10 years ago, but today not so much. Well-to-do black people are not moving to Hickory Hill anymore. The area along Winchester east of Riverdale, near Southwind is much more reminiscent of a "black suburb" as many middle class black families with money have moved to this area in the last 5 to 10 years. This area is one of the fastest growing areas in the Memphis metro according to 2010 census data. Much of that movement has been middle class black families moving from Hickory Hill and other declining areas. The nice areas of Hickory Hill are very hard to find. There are nice streets here and there, but most of the area is over run with blight and low class people. The huge number of apartment complexes keeps the area ripe with crime. Most of the retail has moved eastward down Winchester (east of 385 closer to Southwind), leaving large unoccupied shopping centers. Property value in the area is abysmal and the schools are not much better. The only places thriving in Hickory Hill are the mega churches. The churches are doing a great job trying to revitalize the area, but they have a LONG way to go. I grew up in the area and currently have family that still lives there, so I am very familiar with what has been going on.
East Memphis
Richland Elementary, WS Middle, and WS High are every bit as good as anything you will find in Germantown and Collierville. I am not sure where you are coming from about the racial dynamic at WS High. Everyone I have spoken to about the school (People with kids enrolled or recently graduated kids) tell me that by in large the white and black students get along great. It is not uncommon to see large groups of racially diverse groups hanging out together at the school and outside of school. There may be some issue, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I also do not think the school has declined over the last 10 years. It was just reported that the school has 22 National Merit Scholars (more than all of SCS). The ACT scores are also still very strong. Some people may prefer Germantown or Collierville over East Memphis because of taxes, Memphis politics, and separation from iffy areas, but many people LOVE the convenience of being in the East Memphis area. You can get almost anywhere in the area from East Memphis in 20 minutes. If drive time is an issue for people, Collierville is MUCH farther away.
Piperton
I disagree about Piperton and Fayette County in general. When 385 is complete I think the area will grow, but it will not experience explosive growth like Desoto County because of the schools and the fact that the area is not as assessable to the Memphis employment centers. I also notice that Piperton tends to prefer McMansion style development which really does not lead to high population growth. This is not a bad thing since it will typically keep the riff-raff out, but it will also dampen population growth. I doubt you will see large apartment complexes or zero lot type developments popping up in Piperton any time soon. I would expect this area to remain not very densely populated. Currently the infrastructure in southern Fayette County is severely lacking. The roads are narrow and poorly maintained. Many areas in southern Fayette County don’t even have a sewer system. Anybody currently living in the area has to drive into Collierville to even go the grocery store. The taxes are low and there are wide open spaces, but this area has too much working against it to ever really explode with growth.
Hickory Hill
I totally disagree with your description of Hickory Hill as a "black suburb". This may have been the case 10 years ago, but today not so much. Well-to-do black people are not moving to Hickory Hill anymore. The area along Winchester east of Riverdale, near Southwind is much more reminiscent of a "black suburb" as many middle class black families with money have moved to this area in the last 5 to 10 years. This area is one of the fastest growing areas in the Memphis metro according to 2010 census data. Much of that movement has been middle class black families moving from Hickory Hill and other declining areas. The nice areas of Hickory Hill are very hard to find. There are nice streets here and there, but most of the area is over run with blight and low class people. The huge number of apartment complexes keeps the area ripe with crime. Most of the retail has moved eastward down Winchester (east of 385 closer to Southwind), leaving large unoccupied shopping centers. Property value in the area is abysmal and the schools are not much better. The only places thriving in Hickory Hill are the mega churches. The churches are doing a great job trying to revitalize the area, but they have a LONG way to go. I grew up in the area and currently have family that still lives there, so I am very familiar with what has been going on.
East Memphis
Richland Elementary, WS Middle, and WS High are every bit as good as anything you will find in Germantown and Collierville. I am not sure where you are coming from about the racial dynamic at WS High. Everyone I have spoken to about the school (People with kids enrolled or recently graduated kids) tell me that by in large the white and black students get along great. It is not uncommon to see large groups of racially diverse groups hanging out together at the school and outside of school. There may be some issue, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I also do not think the school has declined over the last 10 years. It was just reported that the school has 22 National Merit Scholars (more than all of SCS). The ACT scores are also still very strong. Some people may prefer Germantown or Collierville over East Memphis because of taxes, Memphis politics, and separation from iffy areas, but many people LOVE the convenience of being in the East Memphis area. You can get almost anywhere in the area from East Memphis in 20 minutes. If drive time is an issue for people, Collierville is MUCH farther away.
Piperton
I disagree about Piperton and Fayette County in general. When 385 is complete I think the area will grow, but it will not experience explosive growth like Desoto County because of the schools and the fact that the area is not as assessable to the Memphis employment centers. I also notice that Piperton tends to prefer McMansion style development which really does not lead to high population growth. This is not a bad thing since it will typically keep the riff-raff out, but it will also dampen population growth. I doubt you will see large apartment complexes or zero lot type developments popping up in Piperton any time soon. I would expect this area to remain not very densely populated. Currently the infrastructure in southern Fayette County is severely lacking. The roads are narrow and poorly maintained. Many areas in southern Fayette County don’t even have a sewer system. Anybody currently living in the area has to drive into Collierville to even go the grocery store. The taxes are low and there are wide open spaces, but this area has too much working against it to ever really explode with growth.
Hickory Hill- I am willing to accept most of what you said. Its a complicated dynamic and you explain it well.
East Memphis- You even said yourself in another post that alot of white families prefer to put their children in private schools who live in East Memphis. I just think a upper class white family would prefer Germantown or Collerville schools over ones in East Memphis.
Piperton- You make alot of good point but give the place some time.
I am glad however you didn't disagree with me about Tipton County
I think we are generally in agreement, but I will add this about East Memphis. Many white people in East Memphis do choose private school , but this does not necessarily mean that they would prefer schools in Germantown or Collierville. There are a couple reasons why the private school population is so high in East Memphis.
1) There are several nice areas of East Memphis that are not zoned for the WS schools (i.e. River Oaks, Sea Isle, Green Trees, Kirby Woods, High Point, etc.) The people who live in these areas tend to choose private school at a very high rate. This is why schools like Ridgeway are over 80% black when the general population in the school zone is only around 30% black
2) There are also several Catholic and Jewish people that live in East Memphis. These families tend to send their children to private schools in the area that caters to their religious beliefs
3) There are also SEVERAL truly wealthy people in East Memphis and most of these people send their kids to the top private schools (i.e. MUS, St. Mary’s, etc.) because they can, and because this is what their peers are doing.
These same dynamics play out in places like Germantown as well. Approximately 40% of the kids in Germantown go to private school.
MOST middle class, non Catholic/ Jewish white people in the Richland and WS scool zones send their kids to public school and are very happy with the schools.
I do not really know much about Tipton County so I really can’t agree or disagree, but I do not it does not compare to Germantown or Collierville, LOL.
Last edited by Tigertate; 09-29-2011 at 10:31 PM..
East Memphis- Its a good option for alot of people yet I feel its terribly overpriced for what you get if you are raising a family. The traffic is just as bad on Poplar as it is on Germantown Pkwy.High Schools such as White Station in that area are not as good as they use to be 10 years ago. A new kid from another city with no friends would have a hard time fitting in at White Station since the blacks that go there feel ostrasized from the whites that go there and they like to pick on shy new white kids because of the weird racial dynamics of East Memphis. Also alot of people who live in East Memphis have their kids in a private school since they usually have the money to do so and know its the best option .I feel alot of people who live out in East Memphis like the plaza,skyscraper like charm of it and various retail specialty shops out there.It has the Paradiso,Whole Foods and alot of Germantown/Collierville esque like shops that are very nice and upscale. However I still like Germantown and Collerville better overall for raising a family since their public schools are so good. If you are a college student its a great option since its near the University of Memphis and has alot of good bars.If you are an older couple with grown kids, I like it for you as well.
Arlington- Probably the best kept secret in Memphis. Alot of Lakeland caliber people are moving out there and giving it the same kind of suburban charm that made Lakeland great. However there are alot of rednecks from Galloway and even sometimes Brownsville making their way in there to shop and work there because of Hwy 70's reach.Overall shouldn't affect the school quality much at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlee7283
Hickory Hill- I am willing to accept most of what you said. Its a complicated dynamic and you explain it well.
East Memphis- You even said yourself in another post that alot of white families prefer to put their children in private schools who live in East Memphis. I just think a upper class white family would prefer Germantown or Collerville schools over ones in East Memphis.
I am glad however you didn't disagree with me about Tipton County
While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, your impression of East Memphis is not at all accurate; I suspect it is based on hearsay, not from people who have live in the area or are very familiar with the area. I'll be the first to admit that East Memphis costs more than pretty much anywhere per sq ft, but I would also argue that it is well worth it (ie I don't think everyone would call it overpriced)..it's why people are willing to pay the price...certainly a large number of people must feel it's a great place to raise a family. I guess affordability depends on your financial situation and how much house you want...if you want a 4000 sq ft. house on 1 acre, it's going to cost you in East Memphis. Generally speaking, you can definitely get more house for your money in the suburbs, but there are good reasons for that.
The racial dynamic you describe is not at all accurate...if the instance of bullying you describe is a true story, I can empathasize, but it would definitely be a single isolated case and is not at all typical; however, this sounds more like a story someone told you to steer you to live somewhere.
The statement "alot of people who live in East Memphis have their kids in a private school since they usually have the money to do so and know its the best option" is completely wrong... The decisions people make to send their kids to private schools are much more complex than you describe; there are some kids at White Station that come from extremely wealthy families and could have easily afforded private schools; in fact, there is representation from the most expensive East Memphis neighborhoods (Belle Meade, Hedgemoor, pidgeon estates, River Oaks, Balmoral, etc) and Midtown neighborhoods (Central Gardens and Evergreen). Many, including myself, would argue that the only private schools that are as good academically are MUS and St Mary's. That being said, East Memphis definitely has a large number of kids that go to private high schools. Many of the kids that attend the higher end private schools (MUS, St. Mary's, Hutchison, and Lausanne) would do so regardless of what public school they were districted for... some people just prefer private schools. Others send their kids to private schools because they prefer single sex or religiously-affiliated schools. Then there are the few that either got kicked out of or never met the minimum requirements for the optional program at White Station (the standard program there is not desirable). Because the optional program's entrance requirements ensure the populace is capable of keeping up, the faculty can teach at an expedited rate (hence the academic excellence); you can look the full requirements up, but only students that score in the top 20th percentile on standardized tests and keep their grades up are in the program. Your statement that you "think a upper class white family would prefer Germantown or Collerville schools over ones in East Memphis" is definitely wrong. Actually. several upper-class Germantown families send their kids to White Station through the optional school as well as the East Memphis private schools. Schools are certainly not a reason to choose Germantown/Collierville over East Memphis. The main reason people have chosen the suburbs, as you alluded to, is that it has not historically been affordable for many. For the sake brevity, I am not going to get into elementary school options of those in the area (more numerous than high school ones). I just advise you to recognize that you may not know enough people to accurately express the feelings of the wealthy of Germantown and East Memphis.
In any case, if you prefer Arlington/Lakeland that's good for you; I certainly wouldn't call them secrets though; Like any unestablished suburb, there is a lot of risk to buying there. There is a severe excess of housing in the metropolitan area and prices in very well established suburban neighborhoods (like those in Germantown) that will continue to put pricing pressure on the other suburbs. In my mind, you have the least risk in East Memphis, Germantown, and midtown; These neighborhoods are really well established and don't have the high concentration of property transfers during the real-estate bubble that you may find in some other areas. Also, what was driving growth in some of the other neighborhoods was that people wanted huge houses regardless of whether or not they could afford them.
Last edited by one opinion; 09-30-2011 at 12:18 PM..
I think we are generally in agreement, but I will add this about East Memphis. Many white people in East Memphis do choose private school , but this does not necessarily mean that they would prefer schools in Germantown or Collierville. There are a couple reasons why the private school population is so high in East Memphis.
1) There are several nice areas of East Memphis that are not zoned for the WS schools (i.e. River Oaks, Sea Isle, Green Trees, Kirby Woods, High Point, etc.) The people who live in these areas tend to choose private school at a very high rate. This is why schools like Ridgeway are over 80% black when the general population in the school zone is only around 30% black
2) There are also several Catholic and Jewish people that live in East Memphis. These families tend to send their children to private schools in the area that cater to their religious beliefs
3) There are also SEVERAL truly wealthy people in East Memphis and most of these people send their kids to the top private schools (i.e. MUS, St. Mary’s, etc.) because they can, and because this is what their peers are doing.
These same dynamics play out in places like Germantown as well. Approximately 40% of the kids in Germantown go to private school.
MOST middle class, non Catholic/ Jewish white people in the Richland and WS scool zones send their kids to public school and are very happy with the schools.
I do not really know much about Tipton County so I really can’t agree or disagree, but I do not it does not compare to Germantown or Collierville, LOL.
Probably off topic but those house in Central Gardens are stunning! It looks like very upscale Hancock Park in Los Angeles where houses go for $3-5 million. I can't imagine anyone not choosing this neighborhood if they could. I would be a happy camper just being able to take in all that beautiful historic architecture with walks every day. My stepmom lives in Hernando MS and this is what would get me to Memphis to visit. Germantown looks positively dismal compared to here from my quick Google maps tour.
Just out of curiosity, would it just be the schools, crime (either real or perceived), or just the typical suburbanites fear of the city that would preclude someone from choosing this neighborhood if they could afford it?
Central Gardens does indeed have many beautiful houses, but I think the neighborhood's location isn't ideal for a lot of people. The school district isn't good--I'm sure nearly everyone there with children sends their kids to private school. The houses are very old, and I'm sure a lot of them aren't maintained as well as they could be. And, as with anywhere in Midtown, crime is going to be a real consideration. Central Gardens is only right down the street from Lamar Ave. This probably isn't a big deal, but I imagine the liberal Midtown image deters some wealthy people from wanting to live there, too.
^^^
Thanks for the quick reply. I think your matter-of-fact posts are really helpful to folks considering places to move there. I don't know anything about Memphis other that what I get from my step-mom and step-brother's family in Hernando. She is all about going to the city and my step-brother chastises her and says it's too dangerous! lol- hard to know who to believe.
Central Gardens has some very upscale, expensive housing and some really wealthy residents; so do other parts of midtown (Evergreen, many of the homes along East Parkway, etc.). In contrast to what your perception (or your step-brother's) may be, there are some very nice, affluent areas in the city; Central Gardens is among them. Some of homes there are truly spectacular and are just as expensive as anything you will find in the area (city or suburbs).
As you mentioned, the decisions people make on where to live (suburbs vs city) are based on several factors (schools, convenience to work, where friends live, taxes, crime, etc.). The thing about Midtown in general is that the really affluent and much less affluent areas are not that far apart; some people don't feel comfortable with that. In midtown, you can be in a very affluent area and drive 5-10 minutes in two or three directions and be in a much less affluent area. There are two private schools in Central Gardens that many people use; however some use the city public schools (primarily the ones with optional/magnet programs) and the east memphis private schools. Central gardens is safe; people are always out jogging/running/walking dogs, etc. However, as in several parts of midtown, there is petty crime in the gardens (don't leave valuables unattended in plain sight or they may get taken). That being said, those that live in midtown, generally love it. You'll find that several of the residents in the gardens wouldn't live anywhere else in town.
Anyway, Central Gardens is certainly a safe place to visit if that is what you are asking.
Last edited by one opinion; 10-08-2011 at 08:00 PM..
^^^
Thanks for all the info. I'm sure I'll make my way for a visit sometime soon. I'm quite the urban adventurer so I'm certainly more of my step-mom's cloth than my step-brothers.
I live in a very Central Gardens-like urban historic neighborhood here by choice and like many of its inhabitants couldn't imagine living anywhere else in this city regardless of how much money I had. When visiting other cities I am always drawn to core historic neighborhoods for the architecture, scale, density and trees which typically makes for a beautiful and dynamic place to experience as opposed to the out-lying areas. I can see why some people make the choices that they do, whether by comfort level or schools, but I love having no children and never having to make the suburban choice. I would never feel comfortable living in an area where I start looking around and everyone nearby seems to be just like me haha- not much chance of interesting life experiences there. Or more importantly, a place where few people walk because of a place that doesn't encourage it or makes it boring or nearly impossible by the way it's designed.
Memphis looks like it stands up well to other cities for having some great core neighborhoods and beautiful historic houses, I can't wait to check it out.
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