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Old 04-21-2013, 09:01 AM
 
39 posts, read 64,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
People who mimic a 5% recovery rate for A.A. are parroting someone's misinterpretation of someone looking at the Triennial Studies and seeing that of 19 folks who went to A.A. for a year, 5 stayed. That's 26% and it goes up from there.

Have you ever personally gone to A.A., sorted out 100 real alcoholics from the group who earnestly wanted to fess up to their condition and were ready to quit for good and all, followed them around for a year, and checked them to see how many were still sober and still in A.A.?
Feel free to throw up some different statistics!! I tried finding as accurate a study or studies as I could, a long time ago. The highest claim I ever saw was about 50%. A 30% success rate was another one that popped up a lot.
I'll mimic whatever ya got!! (Or whatever suits my purpose!!)

They almost always point out how difficult it is to even approach pinpointing the success/failure rate for A.A., given the anonymity that is at the very heart of the program. And for many other reasons as well, such as how problematic accurate follow ups are.

And it's almost impossible to figure out the success rate for 'cold turkey' success stories, too.
Who the hell knows about me? I didn't make any kind of proclamation when I quit!!!
(And who's going to follow me around and see if I stay sober!!?)

I was court ordered to go to A.A.
That was a million years ago. (Well, 40 years ago, anyway.)
But not for Alcoholism.
If I had to go to a 12 step program, it should have been to N.A. But that wasn't available at that time and place, so A.A. it was.
I wasn't in it for long.
Long enough to skew the statistics, though!!

One thing can't be argued with when it comes to A.A. (I don't think so, anyway!)

A.A. works for a lot of people.

(And there's plenty of other ways, and they work for other people. And for some poor, wretched souls, nothing works or they never even try to stop and they waste their lives and sometimes come to a sorry end.)
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:20 AM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
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A.A. has their own recovery rate. Grab a 3rd edition if you're so inclined. If you're not alcoholic, I couldn't, for the life of me, fathom why a non-alky would care... unless you're either a radical atheist or a earning money from the treatment industry. Grab that 3rd edition and read the forwards. You will see a 75% recovery rate that breaks down like this... half got sober right away and half of those who failed got it on the 2nd go. That's 75%. The book also says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those that fail either cannot or will not..."

So, it usually boils down to the will-nots.

If you sorted out real Alcoholics and put them in real Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, I think you'd see fine stats.

But who cares?

I don't. I take care of my sobriety.

A.A. is neither in a contest nor are they running a membership drive.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,709,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
A.A. has their own recovery rate. Grab a 3rd edition if you're so inclined. If you're not alcoholic, I couldn't, for the life of me, fathom why a non-alky would care... unless you're either a radical atheist or a earning money from the treatment industry. Grab that 3rd edition and read the forwards. You will see a 75% recovery rate that breaks down like this... half got sober right away and half of those who failed got it on the 2nd go. That's 75%. The book also says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those that fail either cannot or will not..."

So, it usually boils down to the will-nots.

If you sorted out real Alcoholics and put them in real Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, I think you'd see fine stats.

But who cares?

I don't. I take care of my sobriety.

A.A. is neither in a contest nor are they running a membership drive.
That's the crux of the problem for non-alky's Dog, they cannot fathom the definition and differences between a Hard Drinker and a Real Alcoholic." Time and time again, just on this thread even, the hard drinkers keep repeating how they quit by using their own will-power and self-knowledge and didn't need AA, thereby defining themselves as hard drinkers. I give them my respect for their accomplishments, but they are not recovered alcoholics by definition.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,593 posts, read 26,478,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
LOL!!! People do TOO drink because they're depressed!!!
AND they're depressed because they drink!
Kind of a generalization. Alcoholics often self medicate with alcohol. But to say that all "people do too drink because they're depressed" isn't accurate. And there are plenty of alcoholics who aren't depressed. There's no such thing as one type of alcoholic.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,709,317 times
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The book "Alcoholics Anonymous" lists 5 classes of alcoholics. Later on Dr. E. Morton Jelnick
defined even more classes of alcoholics.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:42 PM
 
39 posts, read 64,973 times
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@CA4Now

If you think I meant ALL people DO drink because they're depressed and they're depressed because they drink, you're misunderstanding what I said!!!
I didn't say that ALL people do it!!

I said that people do it!!! And some people do!! (And are then further depressed from doing it, as alcohol is a depressant!!!)

I went back to check what I said and I'll go so far to say that I should have started the following question with 'Or', rather than 'And'.
Looking at it now, I can see where that could be construed as ALL people drink because they're depressed and then are depressed because they're drinking - and for other additional reasons, as well. (Which is true for some people, but not by all and that wasn't an issue I was specifically and solely addressing!)

So, my bad for not saying what I meant in as clear and concise manner as possible.

My point (or what I believe, anyway), is that some people do drink because they're depressed and are then MORE depressed because they drink and that plenty of other people drink for plenty of other reasons, not related to 'mere' depression.

If I want to generalize, I will say this!!! People who abuse alcohol do so for various reasons.

@Pawporri --

Gosh!!!
So many healthcare professionals have diagnosed me as an 'alcoholic'!!!

My drinking cost me my marriage, my job, my house, my relationship with my daughter (for a couple of years), landed me in the hospital with alcohol poisoning, ruined my physical health, my mental health and caused a bunch of other 'bad' stuff to happen, too!!

But you say the fact that I quit cold turkey means I'm 'only' an ex-hard drinker.
Whereas if another person had exactly the same experience as me -- but went to A.A. and quit, THEY are true 'alcoholics'.

I don't think that's an accurate or fair criteria to judge by.

I am not against A.A!!!! As I said before, I think it's a real lifesaver for many people!!!
It's just not the only way that alcoholics can manage to stop drinking.

And while I don't particularly CARE what the success rate is, I can see where anti-A.A. people will latch onto that '5%' success rate and insist that it's accurate and why anyone who thinks that A.A. IS the only way to go (or at least far and away the best way) will latch onto A.A.'s 3rd Edition's claim that the '75%' success rate is the true figure.

I don't care which is right (or what IS the 'right' figure, if neither of them are correct) -- but I AM interested enough to want to know what the true number is and to wonder about it!!
That's just the sociologist in me.

LOL!!! It must drive statisticians bonkers!!!
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Old 04-21-2013, 03:56 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,709,317 times
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As a Certified A&D Counselor my observations of many health care professionals are that they don't receive a lot of training in medical school on alcoholism. I'm not tooting my horn but simply stating my anecdotal observations working in the field.
I have personally seen "Hard Drinkers" experience the disasters you cite and quit w/o AA, also. I have watched many die in my 28 years in AA that tried to be "Hard Drinkers" and quit on their own. It is dangerous territory to tread on.
The textbook, Alcoholic Anonymous (Page 24), states that most alcoholics have lost the power of choice in the matter of drink. Their will power becomes practically non-existent and they are without defense against the first drink.
I do not wish to debate that there are exceptions to the rule, and you may be one.
I am simply pointing out that most of the posters on this thread define themselves as hard-drinkers. Bottom line is you are the only person who can call yourself alcoholic and it is to your credit that you stopped drinking through your own human power. I, on the other hand, did it through the 12 Steps, which not only brought about recovery but transformed my life in the process.
Further, Carl Jung, recognized as one the the founders of modern day psychology, clearly stated in the AA text that up until 1935 hardly any real alcoholics" ever recovered using their own will power or self-knowledge.
As far as statiticians go, "Statistics don't lie, but most staticians are liars."
The 75% recovery rate in the text applied to the first 100 alky's. In fact, Clarence Snyder, founder of the Cleveland group had over a 90% recovery rate. These numbers are documented at AA World Services in NY. Those numbers today have fallen substantially, I'm sure because the real planned program of recovery the founders designed has been muddied down over the years and infused with a great deal of "psycho-babble." My favorite saying is "If you want to hide anything from an alcoholic, just put it in the Big Book."
Best wishes for your continued recovery !
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:50 PM
 
39 posts, read 64,973 times
Reputation: 82
Hey!!! Riddle me this!!!!

(This is being addressed to any and all who read this and care to answer!!)

You know that quick checklist that's supposed to help you determine if you have a problem with alcohol?
'Do you drink alone?' 'Do you drink in the morning?', etc.

One of the questions is 'Do you drink to get high?'

That one stymied me!!!!
You mean there are people who DON'T drink to get high!!!!????

What other reason could there BE for drinking a substance that gets one high?

If the question had been 'Do you drink to get really, really high?', I could understand the sense of it.
But it doesn't specify any certain degree.
Is it 'okay' to drink only enough to slightly alter how you feel as opposed to how you feel when totally sober?

I just don't understand why if someone does NOT want to get high, they would imbibe a substance that specifically has that affect!!
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:03 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,709,317 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
Hey!!! Riddle me this!!!!

(This is being addressed to any and all who read this and care to answer!!)

You know that quick checklist that's supposed to help you determine if you have a problem with alcohol?
'Do you drink alone?' 'Do you drink in the morning?', etc.

One of the questions is 'Do you drink to get high?'

That one stymied me!!!!
You mean there are people who DON'T drink to get high!!!!????

What other reason could there BE for drinking a substance that gets one high?


If the question had been 'Do you drink to get really, really high?', I could understand the sense of it.
But it doesn't specify any certain degree.
Is it 'okay' to drink only enough to slightly alter how you feel as opposed to how you feel when totally sober?

I just don't understand why if someone does NOT want to get high, they would imbibe a substance that specifically has that affect!!
I had a girlfriend who used to love to go dancing and sip a glass of wine for the whole nite, usually leaving it half full when we left. I asked her why and she said " I like to get a little buzz on when I go dancing.

To me, that would be like getting in an airplane, taxiing out on the runway and never taking off.

That is the 3rd. type of drinker defined as a "Social Drinker."
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:31 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
Reputation: 17156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
One of the questions is 'Do you drink to get high?'

That one stymied me!!!!
You mean there are people who DON'T drink to get high!!!!????

What other reason could there BE for drinking a substance that gets one high?
Yeah, I would agree that most folks drink alcohol because they "like the effect produced by it."

There's so many things that booze within moderation are good for as a food, a beverage, medicine, ritual, etc.

What I feel separates the alcoholic and the hard drinker from the social drinker is that the social drinker starts to feel out of control and nauseous after a couple or a few drinks. We feel in control, chill, calm.

I may have put this down somewhere on City-Data but I'll refer to it again. This is the most brilliant and simple distinction between the alcoholic and the hard drinker that I've seen. I do understand the line to be a very narrow one. It's not like the hard drinker can't match the alcoholic drink for drink. Heck, some probably could drink many alcoholics under the table if that's their thing. But here goes; If you quit drinking and your life gets better, don't go to A.A. If you quit drinking and your life is miserable, you can't seem to hit your ass with both hands, aka your life seems to get worse, save your seat in that meeting.
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