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When I said nothing came to mind to stop me, I was referring to the mental obsession, not the craving.
Craving is an alcoholic with booze in their system. Obsession is me with no booze in my system and I'm sober and content. Obsession hits me when I'm 35,000 feet in the air with no sponsor, no cell phone, no meetings, no bible, and a flight attendant asking me what I'd like to drink.
I'm at a spot now where I do not want the booze. I don't want to drink it, to sip it, to get drunk... and I do not have to choose whether to stay sober or get drunk. I don't even go to the drink by accident anymore nor do I subconsciously sneak away to drink nor arrange my life so it will fall apart and I get the eff-its and go drink.
I think that the reason I am not drinking or getting high is because I've found a way to heal the root cause... and found a sufficient substitute. In order to do so, I had to be at least half as willing to seek recovery as I was willing to get another drink.
"Men and women drink essentially because they like the effects produced by alcohol." I think that any successful recovery for an alcoholic of my description would include entire abstinence. I'm not willing to risk my mental and physical health nor the consequences of my actions brought on by excessive drinking... for the experiment of a pill.
Maybe your doctor was just a hard drinker and the hope of that pill was enough, a sufficiently strong reason to stop drinking altogether or to moderate... two things that a real alcoholic cannot do by definition*.
People have to find their own way but I want to chime in about baclofen.
It's not for problem drinkers who have no desire to quit. It's for the alcoholic that desperately WANTS to quit and can't control the craving. From what I understand from those who have taken it -- it removes the craving for alcohol. I know a couple people who feel the drug saved their lives.
Now getting sober after years of abuse has the side effect of clarity of thought, so lots of old psychological issues come up. The person still has to deal with those issues. The difference is they deal with them sober.
That can only be a good thing, imo.
A well thought out and rational post. I keep seeing Baclofen quoted over and over in this thread. In addition to Baclofen, there is Topamax (also reduces cravings), Naltrexone (blocks any euphoria) and Campral (rebalances neurotranmitters and also helps with cravings). And you're right. I have seen people who are very serious and desperately want to stop drinking use these methods with success. AA is not for them.
I do not understand why AA proponents go out of their way to dismiss these methods and I have also listed alternative support groups in another thread. The idea is to find the path that works for a person and do that. I find 12 steppers to be almost akin to evangelical Christians as in "We have found the way." There are many paths. If anyone will notice, I haven't pushed any one particular path, just offered information on what they are.
What I will add (and I have already mentioned this) is that one of the core tenets of AA is that it be based on attraction rather than promotion. Wow, has that been forgotten along the way.
I, for one, do not represent A.A. My username is anonymous. I found a solution to my fatal malady of alcoholism and whenever you do that, you MUST tell somebody about it. Besides that, recovery from booze is something I have great passion for... and experience with.
Contempt prior to investigation is not in the 164... nor was it in the 1st couple of editions. In any case, it was used to try to get folks to "change their mind" about their concepts about God. I keep an open mind. I don't need an anti/XAer to throw MOTR (middle-of-the-road) slogans at me, but thanks for the concern.
You're old? Ok. Kewl. Go for the record.
I am free to violate any traditions that I want. I am autonymous, rebellious, and sometimes mischevous. Anytime I get the opportunity to carry the message to the suffering alcoholic, I'll take it.
Rules are not made to beat each other over the head with. They are to serve us.
A.A. is NOT affiliated with any outside enterprise. They tried to do it in the beginning, but we were turned down. Rockefeller Jr. Said money would louse it up. At the group level, which is trumped by the individual, voluntary poverty is the rule. With my group, we donate rent to the Lutheran church basement we meet in, we pay for coffee, and we give a few bucks to central office of our local town so we can be on the phone list, and we spend about $32.00 on books per year. We give New York, gso, and AAWS NOTHING!
About pills and other methods... if they can get you sober and you can do it without A.A., do it!
You did not get forced into A.A. You broke the law and you bargained for meetings instead of jail, but somehow became an A.A. expert.
I, for one, do not represent A.A. My username is anonymous. I found a solution to my fatal malady of alcoholism and whenever you do that, you MUST tell somebody about it. Besides that, recovery from booze is something I have great passion for... and experience with.
Oh boy, as is everyone's in the rooms. My name is Jane and I'm an X. Her name may be Jane or not, just like your name may be McGowdog or not. It's the same principle. Like you, I have a great passion for recovery but from many addictions, and I also have a great passion for mental illnesses and mental health. It doesn't mean I have to go around sharing it with the world, but if someone asks for help, I will offer an opinion.
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Contempt prior to investigation is not in the 164... nor was it in the 1st couple of editions. In any case, it was used to try to get folks to "change their mind" about their concepts about God. I keep an open mind. I don't need an anti/XAer to throw MOTR (middle-of-the-road) slogans at me, but thanks for the concern.
You're old? Ok. Kewl. Go for the record.
For a guy who doesn't play by the rules you are actually going to throw the old first 164 at me? Does not compute. BTW, something else that is not in the first 164 would be 90 in 90, chips, sponsor must take you through the steps, having to announce yourself as an X, etc. Hmm, what else has evolved over time that became part of the "machine" and not the core program? I actually have respect for the core program and none for what it's become today. And the point to being "old" means I have a frame of reference you might not, as in this ridiculous notion that one needs a sponsor to work the steps that sure was not around in the late 70s. I have a friend who attended AA in the 60s and he will attest to the fact the program then resembles nothing of the program now.
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I am free to violate any traditions that I want. I am autonymous, rebellious, and sometimes mischevous. Anytime I get the opportunity to carry the message to the suffering alcoholic, I'll take it.
Well, then all I can say is you are not representing the very message of AA as it was intended. And if you're such a rebel, do me a favor and contact GSO and pulease! re-write that stupid chapter "To the Wives."
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Rules are not made to beat each other over the head with. They are to serve us.
Ok, and the #1 rule I'd make is no sponsorship requirement and the complete removal of phrases like "how much time (trademarked) do you have?" "Your best thinking got you here." There are many more but I'll spare the reader.
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A.A. is NOT affiliated with any outside enterprise.
This is the silliest thing I've ever heard at all. 95 plus percent of rehabs in this country use the 12 steps. And the court is fond of the program as well. To be continued...
About pills and other methods... if they can get you sober and you can do it without A.A., do it!
I am not fond of labels.at.all. I take pills that I have to as prescribed by a real Dr who is a licensed professional for things like high blood pressure, asthma, etc. I do not take direction from someone off the street who might have more *time* sitting in the rooms yet be a rapist or worse. BTW, a lot of that history in those rooms but you know that.
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You did not get forced into A.A. You broke the law and you bargained for meetings instead of jail, but somehow became an A.A. expert.
Wow, just wow. I broke no law (well, other than drinking at a young age but how many teenagers don't do that?). I was 17 years old and this was back in the heyday and the epicenter and beginnings of the treatment industry as we know it today. This was back in the days of diapers and signs worn around your neck and "confrontation." Shows how much you do *not* know. So yes, I do have a lifetime of "experience" and knowledge that you apparently do not.
MISTYGURL, IF YOU LEARN ... OOPS caps lock stuck... one thing about me, you'll see that I'm sponsor-free.
I belong to a group that believes in getting a new guy through the steps immediately, then turning them loose.
Some are meant to 12 step, some pitch new drunks, I'm a 4th step specialist.
Please, go to my blog and listen to a pitch by Frank McKibbon, rip.
Funny you mention To Wives. We think it would have been much more interesting if Lois had written it
I believe in no sponsors, period. I believe a person doesn't need anyone to do the steps (of course, this is how things were back then). In fact, I don't even think the steps are necessary. What's necessary is to find some good support, balance brain chemicals and create new and healthy habits. Support is crucial but it can come from family, friends and a myriad of different kinds of support groups.
I also don't believe it's healthy to affirm powerlessness on a regular basis nor do I believe I owe the world an amends, when the truth is (for example) for each cigarette I smoke I am hurting myself more than anyone else. It doesn't make me a bad person who owes anyone an apology (well, except to me), an immoral person, just a person who is addicted and likes/needs that dopamine in my brain. This is why the article of this thread spoke to me. I believe we are truly made up of chemicals and I see no spiritual "defects" associated with a brain disorder anymore than I see any spiritual "defects" associated with my asthma, quite frankly. It's inherited, it's genetic, my mother has it, and I'm just a moron to smoke.
And, if I'm not mistaken, Bill Wilson was quite the cheater and had a mistress, so I don't think he would have allowed Lois to write that chapter.
I stopped smoking regularly when I quit drinking... which was something like 7 years, 7 months, and 12 days ago... but who's counting? We in A.A. state our position. If we're alcoholic, we claim it. Why? Because we are. We know that when it comes to booze, we'll never ever be able to drink like normal men and women. "We are like people who have lost their legs. We never grow new ones." It's not a matter of shaming each other nor ourselves. We are alcoholic, but we can become recovered... not cured. People who say they are recovering aren't. They are saying they are less than they are and that A.A. does not work. That, or they are playing small, false modesty, or they just don't want to take responsibility for their lives. "I'm just recovering, so I don't have to do those darned steps." That type of thing. But I am recovered. I took the medicine and I got the result. I did a set of steps and set in motion immutable laws to work in my favor. For me, it worked.
There is a step where we state our powerlessness over alcohol. I was powerless over alcohol. I am no longer powerless over alcohol. Alcohol has no more power than a vegetable to me now. I have power over alcohol today and if you'd like to read more about it, go check my latest blog topics on it. It's like stating our need for God's help. We invoke the word of God. We invoke our position as needing Power. You don't get any Power if you think you already have Power. If you don't seek Power... like Power to find a sufficient substitute to booze, you won't get It. Power of intention stuff. Spirituality 101.
We don't shame each other nor do we guilt each other, nor do we walk around wearing signs. You went to a whack meeting or something. I would have told them where to stick their sign.
Now, as far as the moderation management goes... maybe there is some virtue to it. I don't use it. A.A. only professes abstinence... for "real" alcoholics like me.
Now... I never took the time to consider exactly what you are. Being as we are in a nice heated debate... I think it's fair for me... us... to know where you stand. Not in theory... but in practice. What do you do? What are you? Are you an alky like me? Or are you a hard drinker... a potential social drinker?
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Originally Posted by mistygrl092
Thanks, yes, I know you're both right, but this means I also have to give up red wine too. I can't drink without a cigarette. I don't know what I'll do with myself when I get stressed out.
Now, as far as smoking goes, I had a tough time putting them down totally. I took up a nasty habit of chewing. It's been going on 5 years since I've had any tobacco. I've posted on how I quit tobacco before. Nobody seems interested in my technique. I think it goes back to the same thing for making A.A. work; you have to really want to up front, then you have to really do something to make that come about.
Now maybe if you get some long term sobriety under your belt, like a year or more, we can discuss real stuff. Good luck quitting the smoking.
As far as time goes, that's important too. It shows the new folks that this thing... sobriety in A.A. works. Anything less than a year deserves no accolades. Get a year under your belt and that is something worth have cake over. In my group, we don't hand out chips or ((((hugs)))). We let you chair the meeting on your birthday on whole years. But we won't talk about you. You'd better bring a topic with you because the meeting is not about you. You will get cake though. Other meetings/groups do it differently. Some give 30 day chips, 60 days, 90 days, 6 months, 9 months, 18 months! I could play poker with all the chips I got.
Instead of asking someone how much time they got, I ask them what step they're on. If they don't say or know, they probably aren't on one and are just in A.A. to socialize. Now, that's what I would call pathetic, but that's just me. If you go to A.A. and you have a drinking problem, at least give the steps a shot. If not, try something else, like SMART, RR, Lifering, whatever.
We do cake & medallions at our group. Like you say, its a big deal for a "Real Alcoholic" Then a birthday card is passed around for the group members to sign with any comments they wish to make.
Then the birthday person is asked to share with the group "How did you do it ?" if they want to, it is voluntary, of course. Most of the time they share their story of sobriety not their "drunkalog." This gives the newcomer insight on how to stop drinking via direct testimony, and can lead them to believe that it can work for them, too !!
Last edited by Pawporri; 08-21-2011 at 12:42 PM..
Reason: Spelling correction
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To McGowDog
Does not compute. BTW, something else that is not in the first 164 would be 90 in 90, chips, sponsor must take you through the steps, having to announce yourself as an X, etc. Hmm, what else has evolved over time that became part of the "machine" and not the core program? I actually have respect for the core program and none for what it's become today. And the point to being "old" means I have a frame of reference you might not, as in this ridiculous notion that one needs a sponsor to work the steps that sure was not around in the late 70s. I have a friend who attended AA in the 60s and he will attest to the fact the program then resembles nothing of the program now.
