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Unless someone is a doctor with the education and experience to diagnose a condition, anyone else putting labels on someone else is "Playing Doctor". Who really cares whether someone has a bi-polar disorder, personality disorder or is narcisstic? The bottom line is that it's easy to determine unacceptable behavior. If someone makes very poor decisions that ultimately bring drama to their life and anyone else involved with them, if someone, whether man or woman has uncontrollable rage and freaks the hell out over the most minor things, all we need understand is that it's truly bad behavior, not "normal" behavior, and make the decision to either tolerate it or move on. I dealt with a woman I loved very very much for close to 8 years, on and off, dealing with uncontrollable rage, no acceptance of decent boundaries, as well as outright deceit and lies. I was naive. I was 40 years old, but never dealt with that kind of behavior before. It taught me a very valuable lesson. When another woman came along years later whose occupation was bookkeeper and decided to write herself an extra 2k in her paycheck because she needed the money, that was ALL I needed to know...exit..stage left. That's a very very bad decision, no matter how desperate someone may be to pay bills, and not exactly a "normal" way of dealing with a situation. And yeah, sex was wonderful, but guess what? I'm 50 years old and I would have to say that the best sexual experiences I've had in terms of no holds barred were with women who had apparent and obvious issues with keeping their lives straight, definitely expressed very "abnormal" bhavior.
If man or woman is out of control, if they don't behave "normally" and make decent decisions, at least most of the time, if they express uncontrollable rage, have wacky sleep habits, then who the hell cares about what mental illness they might have?
The end result is, ask yourself whether you could put up with his or her crap BEFORE you get married and whether this is the kind of life you want to live? If the answer is no, then run the hell away as fast as you can. If the answer is, well maybe all that person needs the right kind of love and he or she will be what you want them to be, then you yourself need to go get some counseling because often times it indicates a person has their own issues that determine why they are willing to accept an "unhealthy" partner, and that means neither is healthy(and degrees of mental health don't matter).
Stop worrying about the diagnosis. Worry about what you can and can't accept from another human being, establish healthy boundaries that protect yourself, and they will help you identify and recognize a relationship that is not good for you.
Peace,
Ray
This is good advice but there is a two way street really...
Bottom line is that you try to help someone by telling him or her they have some kind of a problem. Sure, you cannot "play" a doctor but when you see the weird rage mode without provocation really...you know something's off. You do research, you find similarities, you begin connecting the dots...
I think compassion often comes with telling the truth. Back in 2001 I was in a relationship with a depression patient, she was a very insecure individual, and she evaluated every single decision we made with her "spiritual mother" (not her real mother, just a surrogate religious type of motherly figure) she was 36 yrs old back then. It doesn't take a Harvard's degree on Psychology to know she was very insecure. Observation, a keen one, a sharp ear and connecting the dots often gives a broad picture of the person.
Sure, we all have our issues, myself? ADD and Hyperactive...multi tasking...you have to know your "demons" in order to overcome them.
I agree with you...perhaps the wise decision here was to run away and leave her be. No explanation no nothing (I'm talking about the "bipolar" affair), but I had the strong need to tell her how I felt. It backfired me. And I was deeply sorry for that. I learned here a compassionate distance is the key here. And for that advice I'm grateful.
But your advice at the end is very insightful, if we take abussive behavior when we don't need to...well my friend...that's a sign right there.
The other thing in this thread is that the posters seem to think ALL people who are bipolar are the ones who go very up and then very down. Not true. Most have subtle shifts. Many do fine in life until like me something awful happens and the coping isn't there. And the conventional idea that meds cure anything is false. It treats. It treats by putting everything in the middle. No real joy, no real sadness. If your like me, and the shifts are mild (except for triggered things which can apply to everyone) the meds make me into a zombie. I don't take them now. I get down a bit and up a bit. I accept myself too.
I think its better for us to ALL accept ourselves as we are and be honest, and if others click with us as we are then good. And since nobody is perfect, then give space for the other not to be perfect. Accomidate each other.
But if there are threads about how horrible it is to date someone bipoar and why you should run away like they must be excluded then it just sends the message NOT to have the word stamped on your forehead.
Therapist are no "gods". They are human beings, and like all human beings are flawed.
When you read about bipolarity, and you see the signs: the poor sleeping pattern, unhealthy eating habits, the million things online, the manic episode with three days of drinking heavy and the way it was done (whisky served in strike until the foam cup was full like a ginger ale), the depressions (mild ones but still depressions), the slurring words, the decision making, the hyper sexual thing...well, my dear, you know something's off. When you witness a rage like I did, without doin' anything (no discussion or anything like that), and when you feel you are in the middle of a horror picture when that lovable woman turns all the sudden in a psycho with a weird look on her face...well darling..you know things aren't looking good. No degree is needed there.
I've read somewhere that divorce women who were treated by depression have a 57% rate of developing some form of bipolarity. Guess what? My female friend checked both boxes...
Telling someone about a mental illness is no "label", you just try to help that person because you want the best for him or her. Not because you are judgemental.
But in the long run relationships are hard anyway, and if the person is not committed to change, you just have to walk away.
Therapist are no "gods". They are human beings, and like all human beings are flawed.
When you read about bipolarity, and you see the signs: the poor sleeping pattern, unhealthy eating habits, the million things online, the manic episode with three days of drinking heavy and the way it was done (whisky served in strike until the foam cup was full like a ginger ale), the depressions (mild ones but still depressions), the slurring words, the decision making, the hyper sexual thing...well, my dear, you know something's off. When you witness a rage like I did, without doin' anything (no discussion or anything like that), and when you feel you are in the middle of a horror picture when that lovable woman turns all the sudden in a psycho with a weird look on her face...well darling..you know things aren't looking good. No degree is needed there.
I agree; therapists aren't gods. They are human beings with flaws. However, Google doesn't make a layman a psychologist/psychiatrist, not by a long shot. The amount of armchair psychologists I read about on these forums is truly mind boggling. I have higher education in psychology myself, and I sure wouldn't make the diagnostic leaps the Google educated therapists such as yourself do
Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalker2014
I've read somewhere that divorce women who were treated by depression have a 57% rate of developing some form of bipolarity. Guess what? My female friend checked both boxes...
I call BS on that one. And even if you did read that "somewhere," it's still garbage. Not EVERYTHING you read on the internet is true, you know. For one, depression is NOT bipolar disorder. Those two conditions are quite different. Secondly, many women are divorced and not bipolar. Third, even if she does really have bipolar disorder, your female friend is hardly representative of all bipolar people, because bipolar people are INDIVIDUALS, not just a walking mass of symptoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalker2014
Telling someone about a mental illness is no "label", you just try to help that person because you want the best for him or her. Not because you are judgemental.
But in the long run relationships are hard anyway, and if the person is not committed to change, you just have to walk away.
And what have YOU done wrong in your relationships? Let me guess, with your supposedly "bipolar" female friend, every problem in your relationship was R/T her behavior and her supposed illness, and you were pure as the driven snow, right?
I agree; therapists aren't gods. They are human beings with flaws. However, Google doesn't make a layman a psychologist/psychiatrist, not by a long shot. The amount of armchair psychologists I read about on these forums is truly mind boggling. I have higher education in psychology myself, and I sure wouldn't make the diagnostic leaps the Google educated therapists such as yourself do
No, but it's the same thing as a psychologist would do. I learned from my mistakes, and yes it was a mistake on me discussing what I think was the problem with her. But when there are signs, well you cannot "put a cover on the sun" so to speak. What's the big deal? Does that make me insensitve...if it's not bipolar, it's something that requires an specialist. Hands down. Bottom line. End of story. The yelling, the heavy drinking, poor sleeping pattern, the abuse of alcohol, it's all there...2 plus 2 is 4. Not 6, not 8...
Quote:
I call BS on that one. And even if you did read that "somewhere," it's still garbage. Not EVERYTHING you read on the internet is true, you know. For one, depression is NOT bipolar disorder. Those two conditions are quite different. Secondly, many women are divorced and not bipolar. Third, even if she does really have bipolar disorder, your female friend is hardly representative of all bipolar people, because bipolar people are INDIVIDUALS, not just a walking mass of symptoms.
I agree depression is NOT bipolar disorder, haven't said anything like it. The study (was a study for the Mayo Clinic, so if it is bull**** I don't know) said that divorced women TREATED for depression (not every divorce woman is bipolar, never said that) has a 57% ratio of developing some form of bipolar disorder. That's all I said. Never said anything about bipolar being a "walking mass of symptoms". For a psychologist you need to pay a little bit more of attention.
Quote:
And what have YOU done wrong in your relationships? Let me guess, with your supposedly "bipolar" female friend, every problem in your relationship was R/T her behavior and her supposed illness, and you were pure as the driven snow, right?
Actually no...I haven't done anything wrong with an affair. It was a loving relationship that I wanted to take to the next level. We kissed goodbye at 6:00 a.m. at 5:00 p.m. she texted me out of the blue (I just sent a picture of myself in scuba diving gear) saying that she didn't like this (relationship). She told me to pass by her house at 8:30 pm and when I saw her...she was with a weird look on her face...believe me...doesn't take a Harvard's or Brown's degree on psychology to know when somebody is NOT behaving properly. The screaming of weird things...all signs point to bipolar, perhaps schizo, but my bet is on bipolar for what I've read. Mild one, yes, but still.
Before being all judgemental, PLEASE do yourself a favor and read.
Not because it's not diagnosed, doesn't mean it's not there...come on!
Last edited by skywalker2014; 02-04-2015 at 08:56 PM..
Therapist are no "gods". They are human beings, and like all human beings are flawed.
When you read about bipolarity, and you see the signs: the poor sleeping pattern, unhealthy eating habits, the million things online, the manic episode with three days of drinking heavy and the way it was done (whisky served in strike until the foam cup was full like a ginger ale), the depressions (mild ones but still depressions), the slurring words, the decision making, the hyper sexual thing...well, my dear, you know something's off. When you witness a rage like I did, without doin' anything (no discussion or anything like that), and when you feel you are in the middle of a horror picture when that lovable woman turns all the sudden in a psycho with a weird look on her face...well darling..you know things aren't looking good. No degree is needed there.
I've read somewhere that divorce women who were treated by depression have a 57% rate of developing some form of bipolarity. Guess what? My female friend checked both boxes...
Telling someone about a mental illness is no "label", you just try to help that person because you want the best for him or her. Not because you are judgemental.
But in the long run relationships are hard anyway, and if the person is not committed to change, you just have to walk away.
For me a therapist would have helped more than drugs. I had things to learn to deal with. The meds just made all that 'flat' but they didn't stop sneeking up and take over. That is why you need more than pills. Type one people will go very up and then very down with no triggers at all. I can understand why living with someone with that behavior would be a non choice. But most who are 'bipolar' do not act like that. Claim your right to peace without stamping a label on it.
What your describing is STILL Biplolar 1 behaviors primarily. The vast majority of people are not. Life issued complicate things but the mantra is still take your pills and it will be okay. But while they share a word, they are almost a completly different condition. But you see threads saying don't date these people, they are awful. But know what isn't acceptable for YOU, and if you meet someone who is too much of that don't make a relationship with them. I had a housemate when I was renting rooms like that. She wasn't bipolar. She was a drunk who mixed in some random pills now and then. If she was roving the house, I stayed in my room.
I'm just saying that when you speak of 'bipolar' women, and type 1 behavors, your blanket assuming ALL people who have bp traits will be like them. Not true. You have the right to feel comfortable with those you spend time with but deal with individuals and their behavior, not labels. My ex housemate got kicked out of the house not because she had 'issues' but because she made everyone want to hide in their room from them. Just why she had the issues didn't matter.
For me a therapist would have helped more than drugs. I had things to learn to deal with. The meds just made all that 'flat' but they didn't stop sneeking up and take over. That is why you need more than pills. Type one people will go very up and then very down with no triggers at all. I can understand why living with someone with that behavior would be a non choice. But most who are 'bipolar' do not act like that. Claim your right to peace without stamping a label on it.
What your describing is STILL Biplolar 1 behaviors primarily. The vast majority of people are not. Life issued complicate things but the mantra is still take your pills and it will be okay. But while they share a word, they are almost a completly different condition. But you see threads saying don't date these people, they are awful. But know what isn't acceptable for YOU, and if you meet someone who is too much of that don't make a relationship with them. I had a housemate when I was renting rooms like that. She wasn't bipolar. She was a drunk who mixed in some random pills now and then. If she was roving the house, I stayed in my room.
I'm just saying that when you speak of 'bipolar' women, and type 1 behavors, your blanket assuming ALL people who have bp traits will be like them. Not true. You have the right to feel comfortable with those you spend time with but deal with individuals and their behavior, not labels. My ex housemate got kicked out of the house not because she had 'issues' but because she made everyone want to hide in their room from them. Just why she had the issues didn't matter.
I think my friend has cychlotimia (sorry if I spelled it wrong).
She is a fun, lovable person, when "normal". I never suspected there was something wrong with her. I saw the drinking. I told her to slow down a bit, she got a little bit upset, saying she was drinking at her house. Curiously that same week she had another drinking reunion because she sent me a text and a picture saying: "I'm drunk!". She confessed to me she had sex with her official FWB (I was the unofficial so to speak). She decided to have a meeting at her place where I witnessed the heavy drinking.
Then I saw the mild deppressions, sure, two months prior she was coming out of a relationship, so I was "okay, maybe she is sad for something". I try to talk to her, to go walking in the park. She was often very calm and relax. I wanted a relationship with her, she was asking for "time" over and over.
She quit her steady job in a good school as an advisor to pursue an independent career as a "life coach". Didn't put much thought into it, but looking back it seems "weird". The reason for her quitting? She didn't want to get up early for work.
I noticed a pattern: she needed a "yes man". A guy who agrees with her on almost anything. If not she was upset.
And then "the rage". I described that already. Writing with her "non writing hand". The weird look on her face. Label or no label, the signs point to bipolarity.
People think "only therapist can say for sure if a person is bla bla bla". I think that is partially true. Reality is psychology started based in observation. Sure therapy would help, but ONLY if the patient cooperates.
This is not about labels...it's about saying things for people to know and take responsability on their lives. It's because I cared. Sure, execution was poorly, the word "bipolar" never should have come out of my mouth, but people need to take care of themselves, and if someone points that out, doesn't mean you are "labeling" them.
I have a very good friend who is diagnosed as a "bipolar". He is one of the most funny and charming persons you will ever meet in your life. Best music promoter ever. He had a "meltdown" at a job (didn't see that one) but the description fits. He begins to yell at a guy talking to a phone "I'm the envoy of God. Gimme the phone!". When a manager saw that and told him to keep things down he started to say cursing words. He got fired. I was working with him at the time. Never see anything that even gave me a hint he was with some issue.
Years after that incident, he told me he was diagnosed as bipolar but he is now under control. He tells me there are people out there who don't even know they are this way.
When you see the signs, when you see the rage mode on, trust me, label or no label, you look for an explanation: it was something I said or something I did ? The guilt trip is just crazy...and you care deeply for a person.
The best thing to do (if you can) is the "compassionate distance" motto. I learned that here on these forums. Don't be mean to them, but don't involve yourself personally.
I'm just going to say again that unless you are trained an experienced as a doctor, what right does anyone have to label another person. Look, if you see behavior that is unacceptable, it really isn't your place to point a finger and say something like "you're freakin bipolar" or anything else for that matter. If the behavior is unacceptable, it's really a simple matter of saying so. It's not your place to judge life decisions. The only right you have is to decide whether a person's behavior is acceptable, and if not, explain to that person why and at that point it's not a matter of changing, it's a matter of whether or not your displeasure with certain behavior is enough, or means enough, for that person to change behavior, and not who they are.
Noone says a person should not be responsible for their lives, but you know, there are all kinds of people in the world with much great different morals and beliefs. If what we believe in terms of anything, especially acceptable behavior,differs, well, it really isn't your place to diagnose, it's only for you to walk away if you can't accept it. Suspecting and trying to understand, diagnose, yeah I get it most of try to "understand a reason why this person doesn't see things the same or most importantly, give me the answer I want".
If that's the case, then maybe you think want a person who really isn' the person you want at all, maybe you just "believe" she or he is who you want. Only you can answer that
I wasn't labeling anybody, just trying to figure out a weird behavior
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm94612
I'm just going to say again that unless you are trained an experienced as a doctor, what right does anyone have to label another person. Look, if you see behavior that is unacceptable, it really isn't your place to point a finger and say something like "you're freakin bipolar" or anything else for that matter. If the behavior is unacceptable, it's really a simple matter of saying so. It's not your place to judge life decisions. The only right you have is to decide whether a person's behavior is acceptable, and if not, explain to that person why and at that point it's not a matter of changing, it's a matter of whether or not your displeasure with certain behavior is enough, or means enough, for that person to change behavior, and not who they are.
Noone says a person should not be responsible for their lives, but you know, there are all kinds of people in the world with much great different morals and beliefs. If what we believe in terms of anything, especially acceptable behavior,differs, well, it really isn't your place to diagnose, it's only for you to walk away if you can't accept it. Suspecting and trying to understand, diagnose, yeah I get it most of try to "understand a reason why this person doesn't see things the same or most importantly, give me the answer I want".
If that's the case, then maybe you think want a person who really isn' the person you want at all, maybe you just "believe" she or he is who you want. Only you can answer that
That's partially true, I understand your point. And yes, it was a mistake telling her "You suffer from bipolarity". When you see someone with a cold and you say "you have a cold" you are not "labeling" anybody, you are not insulting, you are just making a statement for the well being of the person.
Perhaps I was trying to find out why that lovable person who I was falling in love and kissing at 6:00 a.m. then at 8:30 pm. was like a demon from hell...possession maybe? She's into new age, kabbalah and stuff...perhaps? Schizo? GAD? common normal anger? Maybe...
I learned my lesson, believe me. If I'm on that situation again I will just walk away. However my intention was never to offend, label anybody or anything...it was just to give some lights about what I think it's problem. Poorly executed I know..but who I was to know?
On the long run it doesn't matter anyway..we patched things, I apologize several times...she didn't. Again I think it's cychlotimia (perhaps that's the word I should use) but now it doesn't matter we parted separate ways and it was for the best.
Abusive behavior from a FWB? sorry dude...ain't into drama.
Bottom line is this: when you see behavior that is not "normal" in an agressive way. Run away.
Yelling, hitting, name calling...uncontrolled anger. Sure anyone can have a "bad day" but this is something else entirely. But that "awww it's an illness" or "only a physician can tell for sure" it's just givin' abusive behavior a license.
Don't try to change anybody...most of them...believe they are "fine".
1. The silent treatment is verbal abuse and it's intentional. Don't wait for that phone to ring. Two can play at that game and you better. Their lack of communication is an intentional avoidance of taking responsibility or admitting fault or injury. Any hint of an apology I got sounded forced or like a therapist texted it. It was not sincere.
2. Any attention, begging or pleading will empower them. This person does not love. They have mirrored you to get love and attention. That's why it felt so right. They need it in quantities no mortal can give.
3. They have done this before to many a guy and are expecting you to keep giving. They may call because now your suffering is just as satisfying as the love you gave them. Their concern is fake. You're on the other side now. Fear of abandonment vs fear of intimacy. Don't give them any satisfaction now. You got too close and they cannot let you closer but they'll enjoy the attention anyway. It wont help you. Pretending you don't really care is your only play. It may trigger their abandonment issue bringing them back. I know that's what you want, but don't fool yourself. They just proved they are not worthy of you. It may help to get some closure. In my experience they all come back sooner or later, but only because they need you. They remember how good you were to them. They may have just been dumped by another BPD or Narcissist. Maybe they were busted in their act and let go by someone with healthier boundaries. Maybe their current boyfriend got feed up with their drama. Don't be surprised. It will come when you least expect it. I had one three years later. When you are healed you wont take them back. That's closure.
Other things you need to know:
1. This has nothing to do with you. They are sick and you cannot help them.
2. This is the greatest day of your life. You just don't know it yet.
3. You are much stronger then they are in every way.
4. Even if you've humiliated yourself. They still can't win.
5. In my experience with 3 bpds. None have kept a relationship. They left a trail of train wrecks.
6. The new guy is going to suffer this too. Guaranteed.
7. This has nothing to do with your money, physical appearance or personality.
8. Don't try to understand mental illness.
9. You are going to look back and thank God this happened some day. Guaranteed.
10. You didn't do anything wrong.
11. You used to love being single before. You will again.
12. Your real soul mate is still searching for you and they are awesome.
13. I love you man.....
14. You will heal. They will not.
15. If you feel the need to help. Donate your time and money to abused children.
16. Adults are responsible for there actions. Child molesters were victims too once.
17. You are going to win this war. You already did.
18. Deep down they know they're not good enough for you.
19. Be proud of yourself. Honesty, truthfulness and loyalty are to be admired.
20. No contact is the key to healing now.
21. You just unloaded a huge problem on some sucker... FACT.
22. YOUR MISSION NOW IS TO GET BACK TO YOU. Anyway you look at it. Moving on helps you achieve your goal. Remember that confident guy she couldn't resist. The guy that laughed her right out of her pants. That's who you still are. You just trusted a loser and that happens to everyone. That's her shame not yours. Her loss too. Oh it's so their loss it's not even funny.
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Skywalker2014, don't make too much of it
I wasn't labeling anybody, just trying to figure out a weird behavior
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