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Old 09-18-2012, 02:21 PM
 
Location: ATL with a side of Chicago
3,622 posts, read 5,217,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Depression is not a primary state. It is unprocessed grief or rage turned inward.
I don't quite agree with this. If you are speaking from experience, yours was different from mine. I had NO REASON to have grief or rage. Happy childhood, happy adolescence. Hit completely out of the blue, which is why I had no idea what was going on. Had never heard of a "panic attack" or "clinical depression". I finally summoned up the courage to tell my mother about the panic attacks, found they were passed down through her side. Depression is genetic on my father's side.

Maybe there's a chicken/egg thing with some people, where clinical depression turns into grief and/or rage that they are unable to process, but for me I am positive this is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Has anyone heard of "spiritual emergence" or read Thomas Moore's chapter on Depression in Care of the Soul? Both are alternate ways of viewing depression, which don't pathologize it. In other words, there is a reason for it . . .and the reason might not be "bad" but a wake-up call.

There are books on spiritual emergence on Amazon if anyone is interested in exploring the subject.
I'd be interested in looking at it, because I do think there are different ways depression manifests itself, but I am certain, from your description, this would not apply to my past depressive episodes. This "unprocessed grief/rage" theory sounds like PTSD, maybe? That often has depression as a major component, and maybe in some people the symptoms are almost identical to a clinical depression (clinical meaning caused by imbalances in brain chemistry, misfiring synapses, but not due to any psychological trauma), I don't know. But it would make sense because in that case, it is triggered by events traumatic enough to cause that grief/rage. Again, I am just an armchair psychologist, speaking from my own experience and what I've learned over the years in dealing with it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:56 PM
 
Location: ATL with a side of Chicago
3,622 posts, read 5,217,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inebriated Duck View Post
This is an extremely accurate description of that feeling in my opinion. I have been able to lay in bed for twenty hours or more at a time, unable to move. If, OP, you feel even slightly like this, it could indeed be depression and not just the blues.
Agreed. "The blues", IMO, tend to be more emotion-based and something you are able to "pull yourself out of" with different strategies (therapy, diversion, etc), whereas with clinical depression, emotions seem to have very little to do with it. We've all been through sadness/grief, sometimes extreme after a death of a loved one, a divorce or break-up of a serious relationship, loss of a job. And during those times, yes, often you just want to lie in bed and cry, and feel hopeless. There are common traits of both.

It's frustratingly difficult to explain what the experience of an actual clinical episode is like, so I'm glad I was able to put it in a way you could understand, though, having gone through it, yourself, you know. People who haven't gone through a true clinical depression, but maybe more of a "down period", "emotional rough patch", "the blues", but had some of the same symptoms, like being unable to get out of bed for days, not eating/sleeping, most often tend to give advice like, "I've been there, and one day I just decided to take control of my life and do something about it, so you can, too! Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and stop feeling sorry for yourself!", "Exercise and increase endorphins!", "talk it out in therapy/to a friend/to a trusted person!", "Get active in the community/church, take the focus of you!" (If I had a nickel... ) Well-meaning, but misinformed. And to further complicate things, sometimes people who HAVE gone through clinical depression naturally cycled out of it, and whatever they did at the time they pulled out (such as the examples of "advice" I just gave) was perceived as their "one-size-fits-all cure-all", when really, their episode had simply run its course.

It's really all very confusing, and I don't blame anyone for their well-meaning, but ineffective, efforts to help. It's still a mystery to medical professionals!
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:28 PM
 
13,515 posts, read 14,982,056 times
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My thoughts - very off the top of my head. When I think of being sad in the past, or even recently these periods have been connected with specific events. And, even in the case of the death of dear ones, I have expected that this feeling of sadness will begin to break up and then recede to some far part of my horizon, or perhaps vanish.

With me depression, without a doubt, has much to do with deep anger that I will not express (at least to the extent that I am truly feeling it); or anger about a situation that seems insoluble and even though I rage it is futile, and depression (defeat) retakes the day.

The first situation used to apply to problems with people in situations where I felt badly used, but felt that I was obliged to understand the other person, and, thus, stuffed the real anger. That habit underwent a real reversal the first time, about age forty, when I let it all out with a family member, called BS BS and lay down a whole set of new rules about our conduct and relationship...and stuck to them. It was great!!! And I learned to do this sort of thing far, far, far earlier in troubled relationships before discontent and that put-upon-feeling had reached the point of volcanic rage.

The second situation is almost always about matters of health or sometimes in the past, employment. Instances where I feel that I cannot even begin to be in control, very much the victim mentality. Having become serioulys ill in my late twenties and then having that followed by another unrelated and even worse problem, this kind of situation is a very longstanding one with me. My initial reaction, and one that lasted for many years, was to hate the body I lived in. I regarded it as a hateful enemy I was joined to who was interested in destroying me. (Don't ask how I was able to separate "me" from the body that "me" lives in and has to be part of "me", that's something for the philosophy forum, I think.)

Thus, despite a chronic spine disease, I engaged in weightlifting and other entirely unrecommended types of physical activity! When the second, and supposedly likely to be soon be fatal liver condition appeared, I began weekends of marathon dancing and eventually drugs, meanwhile focusing much of my "health-giving" routines on keeping myself able to sustain yet another weekend.

It took considerable time (and enormous luck) to reach the point of realizing that discipline really works better than rage when faced with the seemingly uncontrollable. And that there are a lot of satisfying directions and roads that will manifest themselves if I can sit still long enough to begin to see through the smoke and flames of rage. I will not even bother to deny that both dancing/clubbing and drugs had their enjoyable aspects, but they are really pretty repetitious and limited experiences...and eventually I did realize that I was missing out on lots of other things that I could be doing in my life because I was engaged in this ferocious lifestyle protest against illness and death, and therer was nothing left for anything else. Some of these other things were esoteric or academic in nature, pursuits that no one I knew was interested in, so I thought, hell stay home and do it yourself! Some other directions were more extroverted. My best friend was dying, and he wanted me to manage both his financial affairs and his medical care...and he could be a bear even in good times! I could hardly say no to my best friend, and clearly if I just cut down on the high life I would certainly be able to manage it, and did down to the day he died on his living room couch...........and so on for another thirty some years.

In the end, it has just seemed clear that my ownership of my body is not much more secure than my "ownership" of a 20-year career I was let go from, or my "ownership" of a talent for painting, which really proved after quite some time to actually diminish rather than grow and develop.

Sadness I feel will go away, even though the pain may be quite incredible while it is fresh. Depression - for me - is a different animal. It seems it will not go away until I stop seeing it as something coming from outside, and see that it is inside and let it out in some way. Depression seems like a pair of very dark glasses or a blindfold that I need urge myself to take off, or a kind of secret agent for something else hiding inside me.
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:47 PM
 
13,515 posts, read 14,982,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neemy View Post
....It's frustratingly difficult to explain what the experience of an actual clinical episode is like, so I'm glad I was able to put it in a way you could understand, though, having gone through it, yourself, you know. People who haven't gone through a true clinical depression, but maybe more of a "down period", "emotional rough patch", "the blues", but had some of the same symptoms, like being unable to get out of bed for days, not eating/sleeping, most often tend to give advice like, "I've been there, and one day I just decided to take control of my life and do something about it, so you can, too! Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and stop feeling sorry for yourself!", "Exercise and increase endorphins!", "talk it out in therapy/to a friend/to a trusted person!", "Get active in the community/church, take the focus of you!" (If I had a nickel... ) ....
I had this kind of experience in reverse. I was chronically depressed, horribly so for quite a period in my twenties. I went to a therapist that I could not afford (more depression, about money this time.) He was more or less of a Freudian I had been told by the medical doctor who recommended him. We were getting nowhere, and I, at least, was getting hungrier.

One day, at the end of a session as I recall, he left the room for some reason, stuck his head back in to say he would be a bit longer.

My folder was on top to a small pile on his desk. So, I leaned over, picked it up quickly and opened it. And I read - Diagnosis: Acute, rapidly advancing, schizoid condition. Prognosis: I have forgotten the exact term, but essentially "negative."

My reaction was FU, I'm not having any, thank you. I kissed him off before the next visit.

It was messy for many years, but I managed to stay alive and become quite wellish. I guess the proof was about fifteen or twenty years later. I was on jury duty, and this little man was running around protesting to various and sundry unintersted officials about his need to leave. I thought he looked familiar......and then, bingo! It's Dr. Rapid Advancing Acute Schizoid Condition. I wanted to say, "Nyah, nyah." But I did not, and I watched him running around like a rat in a Skinner box, and I thought, my gawd, this guy was going to be your saviour?!

Any fool knows if you just throw up in the jury room, you're out.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:30 AM
 
14,156 posts, read 26,635,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
[b][color=DarkOrchid]What I mean is that rage and grief are primary feeling states . . .depression is a cover for unprocessed, primary feelings.
]

A long-discredited and inaccurate description of depression. Did the poster experience depression like this or just repeating theories?
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,257,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
A long-discredited and inaccurate description of depression. Did the poster experience depression like this or just repeating theories?
Please give your sources, re: "long discredited." By whom: The pharmaceutical companies/DSM "disease" designators/psychiatrists whose job it is to supply the drug companies with plenty of customers/other???

Have you read Thomas Moore's Care of the Soul?

Have you looked into the work of transpersonal theorists and practitioners?

When you are depressed, have you inquired within and noticed any unprocessed rage or grief that lies under the surface?

Have you done EFT and released layers and layers of trauma that has accumulated over the years?

Have you tried Trauma Release Exercises (TRE) for PTSD?

Or do you buy into the idea that 9 out of 10 people have "brain chemistry" problems (really? I wonder why that would be) . . . have you bought the Madison Avenue hype that only drugs can solve your problem and "How's that workin' for ya" (and I detest Dr. Phil, but that is a classic line).

So many people who post here are severely depressed AND on meds . . . doesn't seem to be the answer . . .so I was just suggesting to inquire a little deeper into the depression and offering alternative viewpoints.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: ATL with a side of Chicago
3,622 posts, read 5,217,994 times
Reputation: 3925
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Please give your sources, re: "long discredited." By whom: The pharmaceutical companies/DSM "disease" designators/psychiatrists whose job it is to supply the drug companies with plenty of customers/other???

Have you read Thomas Moore's Care of the Soul?

Have you looked into the work of transpersonal theorists and practitioners?

When you are depressed, have you inquired within and noticed any unprocessed rage or grief that lies under the surface?

Have you done EFT and released layers and layers of trauma that has accumulated over the years?

Have you tried Trauma Release Exercises (TRE) for PTSD?

Or do you buy into the idea that 9 out of 10 people have "brain chemistry" problems (really? I wonder why that would be) . . . have you bought the Madison Avenue hype that only drugs can solve your problem and "How's that workin' for ya" (and I detest Dr. Phil, but that is a classic line).

So many people who post here are severely depressed AND on meds . . . doesn't seem to be the answer . . .so I was just suggesting to inquire a little deeper into the depression and offering alternative viewpoints.
With all due respect, I am so sick of the Big Pharm conspiracy theories. In some cases, for some "diseases" or whatever the DSM wants to call them, I do believe that pharmaceuticals are money-makers. Of course they are. Everything is a "disorder", now, so I do see that point, and agree. But as a blanket statement, it's unfair. Medications ARE the answer for many sufferers of clinical depression; the doctors I've seen have not been pushing the "latest and greatest" out there, but have been trying medications that have been around for YEARS. I finally found the right combo years ago. Generic, cheap and effective.

If you read my post above, you'll see I stated I have NO underlying trauma prior to the onset of my depression. No rage. No grief. Tried therapy in the first few years, found I had nothing to talk about. Nothing to see here, doctor, so move along. Medication was the answer for me.

I appreciate the alternate viewpoint, but I do feel that jumping to the Big Pharm argument as one of your defenses discredits those of us whose lives have been turned around because of medication.

I'm offering another viewpoint. Source: my own experience.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:55 AM
 
7,357 posts, read 8,352,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
And, are there warning signs to indicate one is slipping into the other?

I have a sad family member. The source of the sadness does not appear to be a temporary thing. I am concerned about him slipping into depression. I've heard sleep becomes difficult with clinical depression, but he's never slept well. He functions in his daily routine, but without joy.

feeling low is the default possition for someone with depression

feeling sad is something temporary which quickly recedes and is replaced by your normal happy default possition
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
1,346 posts, read 2,758,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neemy View Post
When I am severely clinically depressed, I describe it (as I did in another thread here, somewhere) as feeling "numb", "emotionless", "underwater". I can't see past the present, so there's no hope in sight. Life has no color. Sunny days are gray. I have no motivation to do anything I normally would enjoy doing. Getting dressed is a chore. Every little tiny piece of daily minutiae just to continue existing is a chore. Going out is not an option. It's isolating, I don't want to talk to anyone, I don't want to see anyone. I don't answer my phone. I don't answer my door. I don't eat. I don't care about anything, even though the world revolves around me, and nobody else matters. Nothing matters. I don't want to live. I don't want to die. I just want to lie in my bed and stare at my wall. If I am able to cry, for me that's actually a good thing; a sign that I'm "feeling", again.

.
Absolutely perfect description of depression.

Might I add...you don't want to go out, you don't want to stay in, you don't want to lay down, you don't want to stand up, you don't want to eat, you don't want to not eat...NOTHING feels 'right.'
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:02 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,257,870 times
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I know depression feels bad - but if you tell yourself that this is your lot in life . . .there is little hope . . .if you investigate other avenues, you MIGHT be able to find healing. That is my basic premise.

I think some people are very attached to their stories and resistant to letting go and healing, for some reason.
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