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My friends mom had it and its tough to be around and her childhood was terrible because of it. She was on antidepressants for a while but I wouldn't have known if she didn't tell me. I saw no difference.
That woman had 4 marriages and countless boyfriends in between. It was no joke.
My daughter age 38 is dual diagnosis, but instead of narcissistic behavior, she is bipolar/borderline personality disorder - which actually, may be the same thing! She also goes back and forth with relationships - did an episode with drugs and left her children for six months 10 years ago - these people just don't believe they are sick - they think everything that has happened in their lives is 'someone else's fault'....like my daughter saying on facebook..... "I should have been a teacher because I could have had the summers off....but I guess the person who was paying for my college wanted me to be an accountant, so I am"......this, of course, is an absolute LIE. It was HER decision to be an accountant, not ours (the parents). I believe a lot of dual diagnosis individuals also believe their own lies.....
My daughter age 38 is dual diagnosis, but instead of narcissistic behavior, she is bipolar/borderline personality disorder - which actually, may be the same thing! She also goes back and forth with relationships - did an episode with drugs and left her children for six months 10 years ago - these people just don't believe they are sick - they think everything that has happened in their lives is 'someone else's fault'....like my daughter saying on facebook..... "I should have been a teacher because I could have had the summers off....but I guess the person who was paying for my college wanted me to be an accountant, so I am"......this, of course, is an absolute LIE. It was HER decision to be an accountant, not ours (the parents). I believe a lot of dual diagnosis individuals also believe their own lies.....
Wow, nothing like a lack of gratitude to make your day. If it helps, if I had read that on someone's FB, I would probably have unfriended them. I'm a teacher and there's lots of reasons we do this besides just summers off and the world can be glad she didn't become a teacher. Anyway, narcissists believe their own lies too and sometimes people have traits from several PDs.
Wanted to add a couple of telltale traits about narcissists and they're sometimes subtle, or not. Often what happens though isn't so much that it's subtle as that the behavior doesn't make sense to you so you write it off as maybe something you didn't understand.
The first one is a trait that my sis has in abundance and I was starting to see it in the man I just broke up with and that's what looks to me like a total lack of pride. Like unbelievably so in my sis's case. I remember that she was dating a man in another town about 5 hours away and every time I talked to her she was always gushing about how great this guy was and talking about their future plans for the farm. I got a phone call from him a couple of weeks after the last time I spoke to her about this and he was asking me how he could get her to move out--apparently he had broken up with her over a year ago and she would not move out! He forbid her to bring any of her things into the house and would dump them in the barn every time she did bring anything but she would not leave.
The ex-bf was shaping up to be as bad--we had already planned a trip to Europe together and though I broke up with him 4 days before the trip, he still wanted to travel with us and I found out why--he had only brought a discover card. Dumped him 2 days in and he almost cried--you'd have thought I was abandoning a baby.
The second thing is that what they tell you just doesn't match up to the reality of their life. Sis is always going on and on about making things and starting businesses and talking about sweet homey little things like quilts, but in truth she can't get out of bed in the morning and lives a fast lifestyle and gets her money in ways that she can't talk about in polite company. The ex-bf was more subtle or maybe I just wasn't acquainted enough but things he said were often nonsensical too, like that he would never let his house get dirty or something like that, when the fact is he is a total slob. When it was over he started lying to me like a dog, or maybe I just never caught that before either, but it was bad. Narcissists aren't necessarily habitual liars, but it won't bother them a bit to tell one to get themselves out of a corner.
Apparently narcissists only know 2 emotions and those are euphoria and dysphoria. I saw the euphoria a lot when we were dating but once I got to his house and he was pouting and I found out later it was b/c he was imagining us breaking up. And yet if I"d been the one more in love he would have disdained me. But I have to wonder--can a narcissist be in love? Or just in love with the idea of being in love?
There may be some link genetically to NPD- at least the latest research seems to indicate that. Dealing with someone with NPD can be very difficult. Though I know of someone with it, who is somewhat aware of their problem. They take medications in the form of mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics to control the mania/hypo-mania and depression- but he is not in therapy-- stills thinks he is 'perfect' uses 'projection' blames others- and is unable to reciprocate in any personal relationship.
This has been my understanding of it.
I think that some genetic link may be involved, but I don't think that all parents who suffer from NPD breed (for lack of a better word) NPD off spring.
There's a reason for this. NPD parents suck the life and the egos out of their children. The children have a job - to inflate the ego of the parent.
Often the child is narcissisticly depleted, because all of their psychological energy goes to inflating the egos of their needy and demanding parents.
They frequently do not end up in good shape - unless they understand what is going on, and rebel.
Those who rebel do pay a price - but a price no where near as severe as those who do not.
I think that an older movie and book by the same name that chronicles life with an NPD parent is "Mommy Dearest", written by Joan Crawford's daughter, Christina.
I think that some genetic link may be involved, but I don't think that all parents who suffer from NPD breed (for lack of a better word) NPD off spring.
There's a reason for this. NPD parents suck the life and the egos out of their children. The children have a job - to inflate the ego of the parent.
Often the child is narcissisticly depleted, because all of their psychological energy goes to inflating the egos of their needy and demanding parents.
They frequently do not end up in good shape - unless they understand what is going on, and rebel.
Those who rebel do pay a price - but a price no where near as severe as those who do not.
I think that an older movie and book by the same name that chronicles life with an NPD parent is "Mommy Dearest", written by Joan Crawford's daughter, Christina.
Makes sense but if a parent has NPD and a child is genetic for it and has it, then I'm not sure if the parent can suck the life out of the child. Fer instance, pretty sure mom was NPD, my sis is for sure. Sis is not a very functional one and has sociopathic tendencies too. I am the opposite--I'm the one who got the life sucked out and I was pretty neurotic all of my life. Then as an adult I became more aware and educated about what was happening and was able to actually have some sympathy for my mother. Oh yeah, and I was the rebel and the reject and you're right--things would have been much worse if I'd been the golden child. My brother was the golden child and he had to do some funky stuff for her. Once her freezer went out on her and she called him while he was flying out on a pilot run and he told her to take all of the food out and put it on the curb for the trash. She didn't do it and let the food rot in there till he got back and then he had to clean up the mess. She never called me lol. At the time she was perfectly physically capable of handling that task herself.
Joan Crawford has been assessed long after her death in 1977- as likely being Narcissistic/Borderline. Her life goal so it seems was the illusion of 'Perfection' which fits NPD- the unstable element in her could have been BPD.
The NPD I knew (who was a male) in many ways now reminds me of Crawford. The way he tries to control his children is also very similar. The 'nothing is ever good enough' attitude of the NPD I know is classic narcissist. Those with NPD will never be pleased- their controlling mania, lack of any discernible conscious (empathy) Obsession With perfection in the end is their undoing- as well as the abuse- very subtle in the form of 'Gas lighting' and 'projection'. NO one or anything will meet their standards of excellence and perfection. The prefect partner or friend would be another Narcissist (A cerebral N going for a Somatic) OR a Borderline (who fears abandonment).
Meeting a NPD with elements of ASPD is sheer evil. The 'Dark Triad' known as NPD, ASPD and 'Machiavellian' combined is the worst of all- Be very wary of all these Psychos.
Last edited by newerabuzz; 07-13-2013 at 05:01 AM..
Also, children under 18 cannot be diagnosed with a personality disorder.
Oh don't worry--sis is well over 18, by 30 years. Come to think of it, 18 is about the age when we all realized that there was a real problem, though at the time we blamed it on bad friends and I can think back to incidents from her childhood that would point to a dx. I can well believe that it's not genetic and I'm glad it's not anyway b/c I have kids. My kids show no sign of any PD that I can see and they are 18 and 21. Yes, sis could have learned these behaviors from mom, though most of her problem is ASPD with components of several other PD. The good news is that she's not really malicious, meaning that she doesn't actively go out and cause trouble with us--she's just too darn lazy. Lacking that Machiavellian element that would make her truly evil?
Here's where I get confused though. I myself have AD/HD, which is not always so great for your social skills. So, I am inattentive as a child and can't seem to get a good signal on how others are interacting, plus I'm raised my a mother with NPD and a father who was a bit of a recluse and I just didn't have a chance as a child and was wildly unpopular at my school. As the years went by and I began noticing the behaviors of mine that were narcissistic I dropped them one by one and now at 54 have a fairly normal social life which feels like heaven to me. I even remember lacking a certain amount of empathy at that time, but now I think my level of empathy is normal, though honestly, if you lack it do you know it? In recent years I've been told that I have excellent insight into people and I work well with children, though I suspect that my social skills are still a bit weak and that could be due to introverted-ness.
So the reason I'm telling you all this is I want to know what is the difference between me, who learned these behaviors and dropped them, and my sis who only got worse as life went on? Why was a I good and attentive mother to my children but sis abandoned all of hers? How is it I started w/o empathy and developed it? Why did I care whether people liked me and sis did not? I realize of course that you can't really answer these questions but I'm throwing them out there as the types of concerns that I'm grappling with. I suspect the answer has to do with the category of "other genetic factors"
Oh, and btw, sis has a son in his 20's who seems to have some kind of PD too. I worked extensively with him as a child but he is his mother's son and she was never around to raise him. I do think that people who've been abandoned as children have got it really rough emotionally though. It's good to do what you can for them of course but there is always that little voice in their heads that says that, "If my mommy can't love me, who can?" And I had that too, but to a lesser extent I'm sure.
Btw, is it true that all people with ASPD also have NPD (but not vice versa) or is that one of those urban legends?
I want to know what is the difference between me, who learned these behaviors and dropped them, and my sis who only got worse as life went on? Why was a I good and attentive mother to my children but sis abandoned all of hers? How is it I started w/o empathy and developed it? I suspect the answer has to do with the category of "other genetic factors"
And probably other learned factors, your personality, disposition, birth order, influential family members/caregivers, and a multitude of other factors. Also, if you had enough insight to drop what you term your narcissistic behaviors, they were probably more along the line of simple immaturity or selfishness. Your sister's traits sound much more severe and more like actual narcissistic traits. It's my understanding that development of a personality disorder is a survival method for that person....meaning that without it, the person could not face the early deprivations from which they suffered.
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I do think that people who've been abandoned as children have got it really rough emotionally though.
I agree. Probably the worst case scenario from that kind of severe early abandonment would be the development of Borderline Personality Disorder.
And probably other learned factors, your personality, disposition, birth order, influential family members/caregivers, and a multitude of other factors. Also, if you had enough insight to drop what you term your narcissistic behaviors, they were probably more along the line of simple immaturity or selfishness. Your sister's traits sound much more severe and more like actual narcissistic traits. It's my understanding that development of a personality disorder is a survival method for that person....meaning that without it, the person could not face the early deprivations from which they suffered.
Right, that's why I call them behaviors, rather than traits. Is that not the right terminology? Yes, mine were def simple immaturity and selfishness, plus never really having social skills and I got that from both ends, meaning that I didn't have natural inborn social skills due to the inattentive ADD and I didn't learn any from my parents either. My brother has lovely social skills though he also has inattentive ADD but not all folks with that disorder have a problem.
Yes my sis's are much more severe but I don't want to give the impression that we had deprivations, except maybe of mother's love (which my brother sees differently.) Ours was a nice middle class family with 2 parents in the home who never divorced--both parents were well educated, though mom didn't go back to work until I was a teenager. Dad was a professor.
One interesting dynamic is that as a child, my mother threw herself into me like I was some kind of project--she was trying to make me into a daughter that she could truly be proud of and a model of what she wanted for her own life. I did not want the same things and found it next to impossible to go along with her program and rebelled by running away from home at 16 and spent the next couple of years at juvenile hall b/c she wouldn't take me back. I grew up some and ended up going to college with my class and made my own way thru life pretty much after that and did better for it. I have photos from those days and I always appear to be extremely unhappy in them. The problem is though that mom decided I was so much a "failure" that she completely did the about-face and left my sis alone about everything--didn't push her and didn't encourage her to do anything.
But still, I remember things from even small childhood that were different about my sister, like the fact that you could not scare that kid. We tried everything--oh wait--maybe my bro and I turned her into a sociopath/NPD No jk, normal childhood stuff, but her reactions to things were always outside the norm. If she started to tell me about a book she read, the plot never made sense b/c she had completely missed the point. Weird stuff like that. Not evil, just different.
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Dumped him 2 days in and he almost cried--you'd have thought I was abandoning a baby. 
At the time she was perfectly physically capable of handling that task herself.
