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Old 10-31-2014, 09:50 AM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrashed View Post
I think mental illnesses are real but quack doctors are real too. Thing is as long as you're not hurting anyone and you can provide for yourself and you are happy with yourself, who cares if it's defined as an illness or not?
Why do you believe they're real? Because doctors say so?

If someone is hurting someone or can't provide for themselves, that means they have a brain disorder and need drugs and labels? In logical thinking, this is called reductionism.

I care because the hospitalization and "diagnosis" are both in my permanent record. I've also lost my 2nd amendment right to purchase a weapon, and the Supreme Court has recently ruled that psychiatric "expertise" can override an individuals right to freedom from self-incrimination (5th amendment).
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Old 10-31-2014, 12:11 PM
 
14,142 posts, read 14,742,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Why do you believe they're real? Because doctors say so?

If someone is hurting someone or can't provide for themselves, that means they have a brain disorder and need drugs and labels? In logical thinking, this is called reductionism.

I care because the hospitalization and "diagnosis" are both in my permanent record. I've also lost my 2nd amendment right to purchase a weapon, and the Supreme Court has recently ruled that psychiatric "expertise" can override an individuals right to freedom from self-incrimination (5th amendment).
You got into a fight. And you behaved so erratically, that they went through the trouble of doing extra paperwork to get you a psych eval. Which said you were a paranoid schizophrenic.

Ya know what? I'm pretty fine with you not being allowed to have a gun.
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Old 10-31-2014, 12:13 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,090,851 times
Reputation: 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Why do you believe they're real? Because doctors say so?
Because there are a lot of ****ed up people out there. How would you call it if someone hears voices telling them to murder someone if not a mental illness? If someone thinks their limb shouldn't be there and should be cut off? If someone doesn't want to eat because they think they're fat even while they are literally starving themselves?

Whether medicines are effective is a separate issue from whether mental illnesses exist and the fact that you can't buy a gun is a political matter.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:10 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
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"Because there are a lot of ****ed up people out there. How would you call it if someone hears voices telling them to murder someone if not a mental illness? "

I'd call it a person who hears voices telling them to commit murder. No labels necessary.

"If someone thinks their limb shouldn't be there and should be cut off?"

Someone who thinks their limb shouldn't be there and should be cut off.

"If someone doesn't want to eat because they think they're fat even while they are literally starving themselves? "

You still don't get it. Labeling unwanted or disruptive behavior at whim isn't evidence-based medicine, it's just a reductionistic value judgement. Behaviors aren't diseases, they're just behaviors. Without there being an underlying pathology that can be tested for, codifying behaviors as illness goes against the entire scientific method. It's called reification. This is a dangerous phenomenon as it gives doctors and other authority figures the right to decree anything they dislike a disease (see homosexuality in the 60s). In the future, politically-minded doctors might decide that spanking your children or disagreement with gay marriage is a mental disorder. Religion could be mental illness, etc. Even today, questioning a psychiatrist after he/she has already diagnosed you is a no-no. They've literally developed a construct for it called "lack of insight".

Also, based on my limited experience in the system, most people labeled with schizophrenia are no where near as extreme as the examples you give, self included. I'd also argue that most of people who are have probably been in and out of the system for years and have drug-induced dopamine supersensitivity, not an organic illness.

"Whether medicines are effective is a separate issue from whether mental illnesses exist and the fact that you can't buy a gun is a political matter."

Actually it's not a separate issue because a lot of what gets called 'mental illness' is iatrogenic (treatment-induced). That's why I mentioned psych drugs' propensity for causing the very symptoms they're supposed to alleviate in the OP, i.e. "antidepressants" that cause depression. Check out this article for more: Now Antidepressant-Induced Chronic Depression Has a Name: Tardive Dysphoria | Psychology Today

Finally, due to the issues with reification that I mentioned, everything in "mental health" and psychiatry is political and merely disguised as healthcare. The DSM itself is a political manual, always has been.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Down the rabbit hole
862 posts, read 1,005,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
No emotions or name calling here, I'd like to hear honest answers. I just notice how so many people are quick to blindly defend the so-called "mental health" system, yet they almost always seem to want "treatment" for others rather than themselves. Then when skeptics like me decry the system for its abuses and excesses, advocates resort to throwing around hollow pejoratives like 'crazy' (which reinforces stigma & belies their whole support of people getting diagnosed/treated) and 'scientologist'.

Scientology has nothing to do with it though, and all the petty bickering that goes on around this topic across internet forums fails to address the underlying fraud inherent in psychiatry:

-Diagnoses are subjective/arbitrary (no objective clinical tests for any of the 300+ labels psychiatrists call 'mental disorders'. Why?)

-Diagnoses are unfalsifiable (impossible to disprove, i.e. the doctor simply makes up an unscientific decree by fiat...no way to argue against it)

-Diagnoses are circular/self-referencing, i.e. psychiatrists say people hear voices because they have schizophrenia, but the only way they know anyone has schizophrenia is because they hear voices. Perceived symptoms alone validate illnesses, and illnesses are solely validated by symptoms.

-Diagnostic criteria is written in sand; the DSM field guide has been revised seven times with multiple contradictory changes in order to fit the cultural zeitgeist of the moment, i.e. homosexuality and women disobeying their husbands ("hysteria") were disorders just decades ago.

-Diagnostic categories are catch-alls in that they lack discrete boundaries and have unexplained heterogeneous symptomatology, i.e. DSM criteria for bipolar, major depression, schiz etc. is so broad that two different people can share the same "diagnosis" with no shared symptoms.

-Descriptive clinical features ('manic', 'psychotic' etc.) are reified as disease manifestations but more aptly amount to social value judgements, because they're purely behavioral and have no verifiable physiological cause. This explains where the (inherent) social stigma comes from.

-Medication efficacy is completely testimonial and akin to religious conviction, as subjects in hundreds of double-blind trials across drug classes consistently respond to both medications and placebos alike, i.e. psych drugs are clinically indistinguishable from innocuous dummy pills, and can't be proven to do anything medically beneficial.

-Psychotropic drugs have been proven to *cause* and *enhance* psychiatric symptoms and regulators know about it, i.e. FDA blackbox warnings about "antidepressant" SSRIs causing suicidal ideation, whilst suicidal ideation is simultaneously considered an organic symptom.

-The psychiatric profession has yet to elucidate what a normal baseline 'chemical balance' looks like, nor has it supplied a compelling definition of what 'the mind' is and how it can be medically quantified (hint: it can't) or what the difference between 'mental disorders' and brain diseases are. The whole field is logically groundless without such explanations.

-Global epidemiologic studies have consistently proven that longterm exposure to psychotropic drugs and the "mental health" system leads to permanent disability and premature mortality, whereas poor developing world patients tend to fully recover from even the most debilitating "mental disorders" due to strong family support systems in traditional societies, and limited access to psychiatric drugs/bureaucracy.

So is bigotry against the "mentally ill" so entrenched that people are willing to ignore and even support this destructive pseudoscience no matter what? Or is this just a secularized generation that seeks convenient materialist explanations for all human phenomona, even when such explanations don't make sense or hold up to logical scrunity? Either way, as a "diagnosed" so-called schizophrenic, I'll say it loud no matter what doctors, the government or "society" thinks, from the kids doped up on Ritalin to the eldery having their brains zapped with electroshock to the homeless coerced into outpatient offices - psychiatry is a straight up scam.
I don't really have the time right now to address this suspiciously troll like post point by point but I will say that watching somebody you love suffer from acute anxiety and agoraphobia to the point of almost becoming a shut-in is enough to convince me that mental illness is a legitimate cause for distress in many people.

Posts like yours only serve to muddy the waters and reinforce the belief that you can yell or shake the depression out of someone......which of course is pure ignorance.

SMH
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Mostly in my head
19,866 posts, read 58,384,568 times
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The OP clearly has an ax to grind with his history/diagnosis. Many people with MI do NOT know they have it, they think they are normal.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:28 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,090,851 times
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Cooking is unscientific too. Does that make cuisines unreal? Should we stop labelling dishes and call them by their complete recipes? I agree with some things you say about medicine and politics but not wanting to label things is just doing away with language. Some kind of misguided political correctness.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,413,482 times
Reputation: 16831
My nephew is schiphrentic. I remember when he came to the house with his mom and would have conversations with a chair. He'd go out at night and wander so I'd lock the door, but he could still open them. One night he did spend half the night wandering outside.

He's been on a variety of drugs, and self medicated, but got picked up on a possession charge. The cops transfered him to mental health and for the first time he was diagnosed. Yes, it took time to find what worked, and he'll never seem 'normal', but he has a life now.

Yes, mental disorders are a physical disease centered in the brain. The reason we don't have a magic pill is we still don't know how much of the processes in the brain work, and it leads to trying things until one works.

But I'm bipoar 2. I figured it out in high school. Our psych book had a whole chapter on manic depression and I read it twice since it described me. And mom. I never said anything. Who wants a label stamped on your forehead? I had my own ways of coping until major stress came and they failed. I don't react right to any medication since I metabolize them wrong, so the pills didn't work. Removing myself from the stress and using my own methods and working with the regular if mild mood swings works fine. But I accept that I have a condition which makes me different. But I am not 'sick'. Just as we cope with unexpected limitations in life, I manage.

Not everyone can do what I do. And don't put me in some huge stressful place because I need a back up pill to pull me out. My nephew need meds. But there is nothing different in the brain not being quite right and the other organs we accept as sometimes needing a fix.

Maybe the label is wrong. Maybe it shouldn't be called mental illness, but brain illness, or brain disfunction. That is what it is.

There are those who are effected in a behavioral way, from things which happen in life, but these are reflected in the way the brain ceases to act as it is is supposed to.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:46 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
You got into a fight. And you behaved so erratically, that they went through the trouble of doing extra paperwork to get you a psych eval. Which said you were a paranoid schizophrenic.

Ya know what? I'm pretty fine with you not being allowed to have a gun.
The paperwork isn't trouble since they're getting paid for it. It's pretty easy to get locked up where I'm from, because medicaid dollars are plentiful. I also live in a low-income "minority" neighborhood which is blatantly targeted with unsolicited "treatment" programs designed by elitist/racist bureaucrats.
Most of the people in the hospital weren't even symptomatic, some were there for detox and got pulled into the psych ward to keep the money flowing.

I'll eventually sue the diagnosing psychiatrist and hopefully get my records sealed after presenting my case.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:48 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah View Post
The OP clearly has an ax to grind with his history/diagnosis. Many people with MI do NOT know they have it, they think they are normal.

"Normal" isn't a medical standard, it's a value judgement. That's what YOU obviously don't get. Moderator cut: personal - off topic

Last edited by Marka; 11-06-2014 at 02:02 AM..
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