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Old 11-01-2014, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Southern MN
7,240 posts, read 4,108,526 times
Reputation: 25604

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
'Problematic side' seems like a soft way of saying it's illegitimate.

People *are* pretty much thought to think of themselves as the sum total of their dx, though. That's the problem. Even many of the people on this board have developed an identity around their "diagnosis."

Yes, I've seen documentaries with archival footage of 19th & early 20th century asylum patients. I'm definitely grateful I wasn't alive 100 years ago.
I think you've misunderstood me. Yes, it is problematic for patients as you have described. It's also problematic for many doctors who would rather not use them the way they are currently used. But the goal is to help and towards that end, with the insurance companies calling the shots at present that's the only way to legitimize that help.

Thinking of yourself as your diagnosis? Nope. You, from this day forth, have the World's permission not to do so. Accepting that you have something awry that is causing problems for you and that you can play a part in dealing with it, however, is a good idea. Otherwise you just get stuck in the hamster wheel.

Doc, what's wrong with me?

I'm so very sorry to tell you that you have cancer of the stomach. Do you want help?

Well, of course! But I don't like that word "cancer." Sounds nasty and I don't want to have it.

Drat. I don't blame you. But it's what I have to write on your chart in order to get you help. Sorry.

If it makes you feel any better you can call it Sebastian.

It sounds to me like what you are working on is that very difficult task of acceptance that something isn't right. It's a hard place to be and I wish you well in soon turning your gaze from them and what they say and do to inward and what will make your struggle easier.
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Old 11-01-2014, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,280,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuszu View Post
The real issue is the push to move mental illness diagnosis into the realm of pure or physical science. The minute workings of the brain and its relationship to our thoughts are mostly unknown so that push doesn't work out very well no matter how many words are used in the DSM manuals. We honestly don't know why people do or think a lot of what they do and think. It's like we are computers performing functions (both mental and physical) but we cannot read the code which makes it all operate. Occasionally decent correlations are drawn and we know that certain chemicals set off chain reactions in the brain which broadly induce particular results, but that's pretty much it. I would argue that Psychiatry as the public is exposed to today is mostly thus in its infancy. Right now the stage it is in is more of a pill-pushing/chemical trial and error process which only works a small percentage of the time (and for nearly all of that permanent prescriptions are necessary).

We all know mental illness exists; I've seen it first hand in a former partner, the real issue with mental illness is this... being around someone with it sucks as it tends to affect/touch the lives of everyone who comes into contact with them in a negative way. I am optimistic in that I believe someday psychiatrists and neuroscientists alike will figure out our mental code and will know why some people behave in certain negative/dysfunctional ways. Humans are problem solvers by nature, and I can see this happening in my lifetime as so much has already been discovered/figured out already.
Good post. Mental illness probably can be defined in terms of physical imbalances and chemical tolerances in the brain someday. Every once in a while you hear some amazing thing research has discovered, which had restored life for some small group of sufferers. But while we've been studying the body and other organs for centuries, we only now can even look at how the brain works. Not much progressed in other medical sciences until the ability to recognize the problem in detail was found and there was a way to treat it. Many billions are probably alive because of penicylin. We knew about infections. We knew what caused them. We didn't have anything which worked to kill them off. You got a deep cut you might die from it. You were injured in a war, you well might have died on the spot.

Then we had a drug which killed the cause and the infection could clear. All the dominoes fell into place. Having only a few and knowledge alone cannot save the soldier.

But the brain is the pinicle of evolution, and its complexity we are only now being able to even understand. Technology has provided a way to learn, but that takes time. And we can say if this part of the brain is active, in this pattern we think this behavior takes over. But there could be much more to it and we don't know all those details yet. It's the first step on the road. We can target that and try to modify it but if we don't know enough, its a hit or miss if it works. In time, 'mental illness' will be no different than the family doctor, but right now its at the stage when the first association with virus/bacteria and sickness was made. Knowing about them doesn't mean you know enough to make miricles.

And then there are the things which no pill will fix. In my sorry experinece with the mental health services of a very large county, I had ONE really on the ball doctor I saw regularly. He told me the truth. I cycled moderately but mostly I had crashes from triggers. Meds could blunt them but nothing in a pill could eliminate them. I had been in therapy but they had a waiting list for the ONE therapist. Then she quit to make more money. He had nothing else he could do but I found a group called the DBSA. Its a support group for those with bipolar or depression or related stuff. No doctors, just those who get it. They helped more than any pill.

But I lost my house since hubby blew things in his life and hadn't paid the bills for our business. Trying to keep the business going cost most of what we had. It didn't work. I had nowhere to live for a while. I have learned to pull back the fear, but it will never dissapear. If something sounds like it might make the floor fall out from under me I lose it. But this isn't a thing which a pill will stop, and sometimes you have to learn to live *with* the landmines and how to lessen them if you don't miss. This is something you can have guidence with, but still, inside, you have to find the way yourself.

I also think one problem today is we have the mentality that a pill will fix it. And magically, you won't be depressed, or you'll sleep like a baby, or your sore foot won't hurt anymore. That's what we want and with the hype from drug companies that is what we're told to want. But its bogus. The pill might help you not be depressed, but if your depressed since you hate your job and can't stand to talk to your spouse, its not going to fix anything. An asprin will make your ache go away, but not stop it coming again. But we're told it will if you take enough of them.

The truth is, we can fix situations, not causes and sometimes its going to be an awful day and your going to be really depressed and maybe trying to figure out what your depressed about and what you might do about it would be a better route. Or you don't sleep because you have so many worries they won't let up. And sometimes, there are just things you learn to live with.

The happy pill is the thing so many people want, but in truth if your not handling life well, and clinically depressed, it will just help the bodies reaction. Your life still will not be 'fixed' until you put out the effort to figure out what is wrong and what in life you can do to make it better. Doing it alone or with professional help or with friends, in the end it is YOU who fix what is broken.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:18 AM
 
Location: City Data Land
16,158 posts, read 9,491,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Diagnoses are subjective/arbitrary (no objective clinical tests for any of the 300+ labels psychiatrists call 'mental disorders'. Why?)
Incorrect. Mental disorders are based on thoughts and behaviors, thus much of the mental health field deals with helping people with what are necessarily subjective issues. A doctor cannot objectively test a patient's thoughts. And much of a patient's behavior relies on self reporting, either by the patient, or his/her family. Does that mean mental illness doesn't exist? Absolutely not. In a bulimic patient, bingeing on tremendous quantities of food, then purging through vomiting, laxative, or excessive exercise on a regular basis is NOT normal behavior. The doctor can also SEE the results of bulimia: rotten teeth, destroyed esophogus, electrolyte imbalances, scarring of the knuckles, even death. In OCD, patients may compulsively wash their hands hundreds of times a day. That behavior sure isn't normal either.

As for testing itself, there are many tests available: the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale. Beck Depression Inventory, I could go on and on. The tests are subjective, in most cases. However, they have been scaled against the results of thousands of patients who have taken the test before to come up with norms and make the tests valid, accurate instruments to use on new patients. There are many ways tests can be validated, and it doesn't have to be lab testing or MRI scanning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Diagnoses are unfalsifiable (impossible to disprove, i.e. the doctor simply makes up an unscientific decree by fiat...no way to argue against it)
No way. Just because a lot of the mental health field involves thoughts and behaviors (after all, that's what "mental" means isn't it?, that doesn't mean it's unscientific at all. Scientific studies are conducted on mentally ill and "normal" patients all the time. For instance, an important scientific study discovered that the brains of schizophrenic patients showed a shrinkage of a certain part of their brains as compared to normal patients, when measured via MRI. Next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Diagnostic criteria is written in sand; the DSM field guide has been revised seven times with multiple contradictory changes in order to fit the cultural zeitgeist of the moment, i.e. homosexuality and women disobeying their husbands ("hysteria") were disorders just decades ago.
Yep. Diagnostic criteria are revised to reflect new SCIENTIFIC information doctors have learned from one printing to the next. Imagine them actually wanting to make corrections. Oh, the horror!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Diagnostic categories are catch-alls in that they lack discrete boundaries and have unexplained heterogeneous symptomatology, i.e. DSM criteria for bipolar, major depression, schiz etc. is so broad that two different people can share the same "diagnosis" with no shared symptoms.

-Descriptive clinical features ('manic', 'psychotic' etc.) are reified as disease manifestations but more aptly amount to social value judgements, because they're purely behavioral and have no verifiable physiological cause.
Apparently you're still not getting what mental illness is. Mental illness is BEHAVIORAL, not physical, (in most cases). Thus, the symptoms you will see affect thoughts and behavior and not the physical body (although mental illness often affects that as well). Some physical illnesses are like that too. For example, what about fibromyalgia? There is no specific diagnostic test for it, but it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Medication efficacy is completely testimonial and akin to religious conviction, as subjects in hundreds of double-blind trials across drug classes consistently respond to both medications and placebos alike, i.e. psych drugs are clinically indistinguishable from innocuous dummy pills, and can't be proven to do anything medically beneficial.
Obviously not. The medications are much more effective, or they would be taken off the market. Placebos only have a minor positive, if any, effect. I challenge you to provide me with a study of a medication that is still on the market in which a placebo was shown to be MORE effective in double blind clinical trials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Psychotropic drugs have been proven to *cause* and *enhance* psychiatric symptoms and regulators know about it, i.e. FDA blackbox warnings about "antidepressant" SSRIs causing suicidal ideation, whilst suicidal ideation is simultaneously considered an organic symptom.
I can't believe people keep bringing up that ONE study about one pediatric patient who committed suicide after taking an antidepressant prescribed for an adult population. Need I remind you that depressed people are at risk for suicide? Antidepressants help people more than they harm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-The psychiatric profession has yet to elucidate what a normal baseline 'chemical balance' looks like, nor has it supplied a compelling definition of what 'the mind' is and how it can be medically quantified (hint: it can't) or what the difference between 'mental disorders' and brain diseases are. The whole field is logically groundless without such explanations.
Wrong. A normal baseline "chemical balance" can be determined with simple blood tests. There is overlap between organic brain diseases and mental illness. The brain overlaps the brain. What a surprise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Global epidemiologic studies have consistently proven that longterm exposure to psychotropic drugs and the "mental health" system leads to permanent disability and premature mortality, whereas poor developing world patients tend to fully recover from even the most debilitating "mental disorders" due to strong family support systems in traditional societies, and limited access to psychiatric drugs/bureaucracy.
Post some proof of these studies please, otherwise, I will take that as just your opinion, an an incorrect one at that. Psychotropic drugs can help people stay functional when they are living with mental illness. It can even help save their life if they are at risk for suicide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
So is bigotry against the "mentally ill" so entrenched that people are willing to ignore and even support this destructive pseudoscience no matter what? Or is this just a secularized generation that seeks convenient materialist explanations for all human phenomona, even when such explanations don't make sense or hold up to logical scrunity? Either way, as a "diagnosed" so-called schizophrenic, I'll say it loud no matter what doctors, the government or "society" thinks, from the kids doped up on Ritalin to the eldery having their brains zapped with electroshock to the homeless coerced into outpatient offices - psychiatry is a straight up scam.
It sounds like you've already decided mental illness doesn't exist, and that the whole mental health field is B.S., no matter what anyone says. However, in the interest of educating those who might feel the same way as you, I hope I have responded and corrected some of your erroneous assumptions. I did this because I hope that anyone who knows a person who might have problems with mental illness will encourage him/her to seek help for it. Help comes in many forms: therapy, familial support, psychiatry. And mentally ill people can use all the help they can get.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:46 AM
 
3,119 posts, read 4,443,201 times
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Uhh, crazy people don't know they're crazy. Professionals must be the ones the diagnose.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
6,322 posts, read 5,026,975 times
Reputation: 9781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Obviously you didn't read the post. I'm diagnosed "paranoid schizophrenic" (code 295.3 in DSM-IV).

And what does this question have to do with the original post?


It helps me understand your frame of reference.

I did read your first post. Knowing someone with an illness and having one yourself are 2 different things.

I'm "obviously" not going to sway your opinion on a message board alone. And from your posts, you "obviously" are not interested in what anyone else has to say. You just want to rant. So rant away.

I'm sure you must realize this, but you do recognize the irony in this topic combined with your diagnosis, yes?
You "obviously" do.



PS- I recommend reading some other material outside of the anti - psychiatric movement. Psychiatry has come a long way since 1982.

And FYI- The correct terminology of your diagnosis is "schizophrenia, paranoid type." (Calling yourself or anyone else a "paranoid schizophrenic" makes you sound uninformed. It sounds more sensational. The emphasis is on the schizophrenia, not the qualifier. ) Also, the DSM-5 has been out for over a year.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
6,322 posts, read 5,026,975 times
Reputation: 9781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
If 'mental illnesses' are physical illnesses, then why aren't there any objective diagnostic exams to prove it?

And why is a fiat decree from a psychiatrist the only way to "diagnose" them?

And what then, is the difference between such 'mental illnesses' and physical illnesses?

And why do 'mental illnesses' have such broad definitions? i.e. schizophrenia has 5 separate subtypes that consist of disparate behaviors that have nothing to do with each other. Why?


Well there is the MMPI-2 as one "objective diagnostic exam."

Other professionals are certified to diagnose mental illness as well: psychotherapist, general MD, social worker, etc.

There is no difference between mental illness and physical illness. All illness is physical. Our technology just has not yet caught up. Our understanding of the brain and behavior is still very poor.

I agree that some categories are too broad. In fact i think that schizophrenia with "negative symptoms" need to be looked at in an entirely different way. New research is showing a link between Aspergers and this type of schizophrenia which I think might be one of the reasons why Aspy diagnosis is rising- it is more socially accepted than schizophrenia.

If you think of schizophrenia like a cancer, there are hundreds of types of cancer. Cancer is "easier" to accept because we can SEE cancer. We can't YET see most mental illness in the brain. But we can most definitely see the manifestation of them via behaviors. Hence the term "behavioral illness."

Imho, the reason you have so much problem in recognizing mental illness as credible is because YOU DO NOT SEE IT AS A PHYSICAL ILLNESS. This makes you just as dangerous and ignorant as people who tell depressed and suicidal people to "suck it up" and that they are weak. This attitude can drive someone to death who is severely depressed.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:24 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
You're quoting for profit companies?
Mad In America Online Store | Mad In America

And your other links have on-line stores: National Empowerment Center: Welcome
Fair enough. I'll stay clear of commercial sources from now if I cite anything. Most of the information the public is inundated with regarding "mental health" comes directly or indirectly from for-profit drug companies though, including ghost-written journal articles.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:27 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrashed View Post
How can they recover from something thing doesn't exist?
Clarification - 'mental disorders' don't exist as literal, bona fide diseases.

Psychological trauma and behavior issues, which are called symptoms, are very real. That's what people can recover from...and without psychiatric labels and drugs..
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,280,484 times
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One of the really big problems is that once a diagnosis is made, you get pills, and your ten minutes with the doctor to prove that in the last three months you can still make it there and seem functional. Most people end up going to clinics and most clinics are bursting at the seems with patients. So, if you do have a problem, you just delayed three people by an hour. And while some problems are physically related to meds or the disease, some are not. If you feel like a freak next to 'normal' people and grow deliberatly isolated (and don't want to be) because you don't feel comfortable this isn't a pill problem or a diagnosis problem, but a therapy situation. But therapists cost and even if available are in short supply. You can't see them once and get an adjustment to your therapy and go home for three months.

Our society is very judgemental and I know people who didn't seek help until they had to because they did not want a label. To be 'different' can mean being avoided or watched. To be different with a label makes you one of 'them' who are vaguely scary. If you hold back with this label you might be one of the dreaded 'loners'. But there is no time to talk about this with a friendly person, just give out meds. Everyone is subject to feeling socially alone, but when part of it is that you are not 'made right' by social standards it becomes a much bigger issue and mental health clinics simply don't have space, people or time to deal with it.
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,774 posts, read 8,434,340 times
Reputation: 13741
I KNOW mental illness is REAL!
My second ex-wife was mentally ill. I am not going to take the time and space to describe all the medications and treatment she went through. It finally got to the point where it was either leave or shoot her and put US out of our misery.
I left.
YES, regardless of what anybody thinks, it IS real, and sometimes medication can control it.
For a while.
Some of her family did not believe me until I left, and THEY had to cope with her. Then they believed.
It is real, and it is no joke!
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