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Old 11-03-2014, 02:08 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Incorrect. Mental disorders are based on thoughts and behaviors, thus much of the mental health field deals with helping people with what are necessarily subjective issues.
If the issues are subjective, then they're not scientific and consequently, not medical. Thus they don't belong under the domain of medicine, but social services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
A doctor cannot objectively test a patient's thoughts.
Exactly, and this is what makes psychiatry fundamentally fraudulent - because psychiatrists are in the business of making naive and unassuming people believe they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
And much of a patient's behavior relies on self reporting, either by the patient, or his/her family. Does that mean mental illness doesn't exist? Absolutely not. In a bulimic patient, bingeing on tremendous quantities of food, then purging through vomiting, laxative, or excessive exercise on a regular basis is NOT normal behavior. The doctor can also SEE the results of bulimia: rotten teeth, destroyed esophogus, electrolyte imbalances, scarring of the knuckles, even death. In OCD, patients may compulsively wash their hands hundreds of times a day. That behavior sure isn't normal either.
You don't get it. It not the job of doctors to decide what is and isn't "normal." They aren't, and shouldn't be, arbiters of normality, but practitioners of medical science - i.e. physicians who diagnose and treat pathophysiology. "Normal" is a social value, not a medical or scientific standard. The fact that psychiatry conflates social abnormality (which is subjective) with medical illness (which is objective) is what makes it a pseudoscience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
As for testing itself, there are many tests available: the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale. Beck Depression Inventory, I could go on and on. The tests are subjective, in most cases. However, they have been scaled against the results of thousands of patients who have taken the test before to come up with norms and make the tests valid, accurate instruments to use on new patients. There are many ways tests can be validated, and it doesn't have to be lab testing or MRI scanning.
You didn't disprove or even disagree with what I said - that there's no objective exams in psychiatry. I don't care about those examples because, to my knowledge, no doctor in any other medical discipline can diagnose a person using paper questionnaires. And I'm certain that there's no other medical sub-specialty where not a single disorder can be objectively verified. This means that what psychiatrists "diagnose" isn't literal, but abstract/social. Based on personal experience, I also have a nagging suspicion that psychiatric questionnaires in general are fail-safe and designed to illicit false positives, so their validation is at best questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
No way. Just because a lot of the mental health field involves thoughts and behaviors (after all, that's what "mental" means isn't it?, that doesn't mean it's unscientific at all.
Of course it does, the "mind" isn't scientifically quantifiable! It's a social construct!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Scientific studies are conducted on mentally ill and "normal" patients all the time. For instance, an important scientific study discovered that the brains of schizophrenic patients showed a shrinkage of a certain part of their brains as compared to normal patients, when measured via MRI. Next.
I addressed this already. The psych studies that attribute brain damage to organic 'schizophrenia' are reductionist junk science. The pathology is iatrogenic (treatment-induced) as so-called "anti-psychotic" neuroleptic medication has been thoroughly proven to cause brain diminution:

Brain shrinkage seen in those taking antipsychotic medications - Los Angeles Times
Do Antipsychotics Shrink Your Brain? Should You Care? | Natasha Tracy
Andreasen Drops A Bombshell: Antipsychotics Shrink the Brain | Psychology Today
Antipsychotic Drugs and Brain Shrinkage
JAMA Network | JAMA Psychiatry | Long-term Antipsychotic Treatment and Brain Volumes: *A Longitudinal Study of First-Episode Schizophrenia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Yep. Diagnostic criteria are revised to reflect new SCIENTIFIC information doctors have learned from one printing to the next. Imagine them actually wanting to make corrections. Oh, the horror!
Wrong. The whole DSM codification process is political and always has been: MDs literally *vote* diagnostic categories into "existence". Did you know this? Also, insiders who've contributed to past and present editions of manual have publicly admitted to its highly political and less-than-scientific nature:

Psychiatry
Psychiatry's New Diagnostic Manual: "Don't Buy It. Don't Use It. Don't Teach It." | Mother Jones),
Resignation from APA | Soteria

Also, 13,000 "mental health professionals" from around the world signed a petition against the publication of DSM-5 in 2012, due to its political/unscientific revisions and contributors blatant conflicts of interest with having direct personal financial ties with drug companies: Psychiatrists say diagnosis manual needs overhaul | Reuters

And the American Psychiatric Association, which publishes the DSM, had an open commentary period where laypersons, members of the *general public*, were allowed to comment and influence what's supposed to be a medical diagnostic book: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/766407

So much for this "SCIENTIFIC" manual, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Apparently you're still not getting what mental illness is. Mental illness is BEHAVIORAL, not physical, (in most cases).
I agree, but psychiatrists are in the business of making people believe it's physical, hence the insistence on patients using brain-altering drugs. The quack I used to see basically tried to make me think I had a brain disease without even testing my brain. You can tell most of the public thinks 'mental disorders', especially well-established ones like schizophrenia, are literal/physical diseases...just read some of the other responses to this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Thus, the symptoms you will see affect thoughts and behavior and not the physical body (although mental illness often affects that as well). Some physical illnesses are like that too. For example, what about fibromyalgia? There is no specific diagnostic test for it, but it exists.
Some doctors actually don't believe fibromyalgia is real, but I digress. You're not really disagreeing with me here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Obviously not. The medications are much more effective, or they would be taken off the market.
This is nonsense. There's no way to prove psychotropic drugs do *anything* medically beneficial, and many of the people that take them are coerced into it, not necessarily taking them because they want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Placebos only have a minor positive, if any, effect. I challenge you to provide me with a study of a medication that is still on the market in which a placebo was shown to be MORE effective in double blind clinical trials.
Here ya go ('antidepressant' SSRIs "clinically insignificant" against placebo):

PLOS Medicine: Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration
Antidepressants: The Emperor's New Drugs?*|*Irving Kirsch, P.h.D
New Study: SSRI Antidepressants ‘Clinically Insignificant’ For Most People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
I can't believe people keep bringing up that ONE study about one pediatric patient who committed suicide after taking an antidepressant prescribed for an adult population. Need I remind you that depressed people are at risk for suicide? Antidepressants help people more than they harm.
I didn't bring up any specific studies about suicide. I brought up how the FDA issues blackbox warnings on SSRIs propensity for causing suicidal thoughts: Antidepressant Use in Children, Adolescents, and Adults

This despite the fact that suicidal ideation is considered an organic symptom, i.e. the "treatments" in psychiatry frequently cause the very "disorders".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Wrong. A normal baseline "chemical balance" can be determined with simple blood tests. There is overlap between organic brain diseases and mental illness. The brain overlaps the brain. What a surprise!
A bloodtest for what you just admitted are non-physical behaviors and thoughts? With all due respect, you're contradicting yourself. And no, there isn't a baseline normal "chemical balance". No psychiatrist has or can define such a thing in an objective way. Feel free to prove me wrong though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Post some proof of these studies please, otherwise, I will take that as just your opinion, an an incorrect one at that. Psychotropic drugs can help people stay functional when they are living with mental illness. It can even help save their life if they are at risk for suicide.
Why would a person be taking medication in the first place when you just admitted 'mental illness' is behavioral and not physical? Why should a person take brain-altering substances when there's no proof there's anything wrong with their brain? And you're wrong, psychotropic drugs have been consistently proven to cause premature mortality and dozens of horrible adverse effects:

Sudden unexplained deaths in psychiatric in-patients:
http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-conte...pleby-copy.pdf

Mortality in schizophrenia:
http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-conte...addington1.pdf

Lifetime suicide rates in treated schizophrenia.This study found a 20-fold increase in the suicide rate for people diagnosed with schizophrenia in the modern era.
http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-conte...alyBJP2006.pdf

This study concluded that “risk for death in schizophrenia was doubled on a background of enduring engagement in psychiatric care with increasing provision of community-based services and introduction of second-generation antipsychotics.”
http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-conte...ychRes2003.pdf

Researchers report that in an given period of time, the relative risk of dying rises 2.5 times per increment of neuroleptic.
http://www.madinamerica.com/wp-conte...ukamaa2006.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
It sounds like you've already decided mental illness doesn't exist, and that the whole mental health field is B.S., no matter what anyone says. However, in the interest of educating those who might feel the same way as you, I hope I have responded and corrected some of your erroneous assumptions.
Feel free to correct my corrections of your corrections of my erroneous assumptions.

And I'm not intransigent, if someone has evidence of why I should believe I have a "mental disorder" called "schizophrenia" even though 1) it's subjective and unprovable 2) it's "diagnosed" in a circular and unfalsifiable way and 3) it's used more to control unwanted behavior than provide healthcare, I'm all ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
I did this because I hope that anyone who knows a person who might have problems with mental illness will encourage him/her to seek help for it. Help comes in many forms: therapy, familial support, psychiatry. And mentally ill people can use all the help they can get.
The statistics and evidence don't lie. Psychiatry is only helpful to the faithful (brainwashed). Slapping people with stigmatizing labels that lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, where people internalize and live out their "diagnosis" toward a path of drug dependency, diminished capacity and early death isn't help - it's a crime against humanity.
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:12 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
I KNOW mental illness is REAL!
My second ex-wife was mentally ill. I am not going to take the time and space to describe all the medications and treatment she went through. It finally got to the point where it was either leave or shoot her and put US out of our misery.
I left.
YES, regardless of what anybody thinks, it IS real, and sometimes medication can control it.
For a while.
Some of her family did not believe me until I left, and THEY had to cope with her. Then they believed.
It is real, and it is no joke!
This is a testimonial anecdote, not scientific fact, hence the word "believe(d)".
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:25 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,696,351 times
Reputation: 15167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
If 'mental illnesses' are physical illnesses, then why aren't there any objective diagnostic exams to prove it?

And why is a fiat decree from a psychiatrist the only way to "diagnose" them?

And what then, is the difference between such 'mental illnesses' and physical illnesses?

And why do 'mental illnesses' have such broad definitions? i.e. schizophrenia has 5 separate subtypes that consist of disparate behaviors that have nothing to do with each other. Why?

Do you believe that the brain, miraculously, above all other organs, and unlike every single other organ or tissue in the body is incapable of not working perfectly? That it is somehow shielded from sickness, pathology or dysfunction (what we call illness in common parlance)? ! If so, you believe in magic.

On the other hand, if you understand that just like every system we have, it can go wrong, how can you write something as ludicrous as your title?

Insufficient and inadequate tools to assess the most complex organ in the body, in fact the most complex machine we currently know of in the universe, and the fact that its output is consciousness (not something readily definable such as physical movement, or bile production or whatever) do not make "mental illness" not real.

Did you even think for a second before posting all those red herrings and hogwash under the title?
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:33 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
It helps me understand your frame of reference.

I did read your first post. Knowing someone with an illness and having one yourself are 2 different things.

I'm "obviously" not going to sway your opinion on a message board alone. And from your posts, you "obviously" are not interested in what anyone else has to say. You just want to rant. So rant away.
If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't respond. I did say in the OP that I wanted to hear honest answers. I just don't want to hear unfalsifiable nonsense like "maybe you should just accept it. Get help" or "the OP is clearly crazy. Many people have MI and don't know it" when I've already explained in a logical/scientific way why I don't agree with psychiatry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
I'm sure you must realize this, but you do recognize the irony in this topic combined with your diagnosis, yes?
You "obviously" do.
No irony, bruh. I made the post specifically in light of my "diagnosis". I recently left the system entirely after a prolonged coercive outpatient experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
PS- I recommend reading some other material outside of the anti - psychiatric movement. Psychiatry has come a long way since 1982.
Lol, obviously not long enough to live up to basic standards of modern medicine like, you know, providing objective diagnostic exams or explaining what the "mind" is and how it can be medically quantified. As for antipsychiatry, there's more than enough controversy *within* the profession of psychiatry to provide me with cannon fodder, not to mention a good laugh, i.e. Al Frances (DSM-IV lead editor) being quoted saying that "there is no definition of a mental disorder. It's bull****": Inside the Battle to Define Mental Illness | WIRED

Lmao.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
And FYI- The correct terminology of your diagnosis is "schizophrenia, paranoid type." (Calling yourself or anyone else a "paranoid schizophrenic" makes you sound uninformed. It sounds more sensational. The emphasis is on the schizophrenia, not the qualifier.
Irrelevant/semantics. The quack psychiatrists I saw weren't exactly rocket scientists or precise linguists either. The inpatient one who testified against me in court mispronounced "schizophrenic" as "schizophreniac" and the outpatient quack couldn't even spell. I counted at least a dozen spelling/grammatical errors in my records, including misspelling of the word "anosognosia". The clown wanted me to believe he was some kind of all-knowing arbiter of psychological health and couldn't even correctly spell his own field terminology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
) Also, the DSM-5 has been out for over a year.
I know.
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Midwest
88 posts, read 70,742 times
Reputation: 106
The people I have known who claimed to have a "mental illness" simply had poor coping skills. Some of them, too, liked the drugs. They were legal and let them escape reality.

Personally, I prefer to feel real emotions rather than be zoned out all the time, even if those emotions are occasionally unpleasant.
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:52 PM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Do you believe that the brain, miraculously, above all other organs, and unlike every single other organ or tissue in the body is incapable of not working perfectly? That it is somehow shielded from sickness, pathology or dysfunction (what we call illness in common parlance)? ! If so, you believe in magic.

On the other hand, if you understand that just like every system we have, it can go wrong, how can you write something as ludicrous as your title?

Insufficient and inadequate tools to assess the most complex organ in the body, in fact the most complex machine we currently know of in the universe, and the fact that its output is consciousness (not something readily definable such as physical movement, or bile production or whatever) do not make "mental illness" not real.

Did you even think for a second before posting all those red herrings and hogwash under the title?
This is a rhetorical question that still doesn't account for the fact that 'mental disorders' are fraudulently diagnosed. No objective exams, no legitimacy. Yes, the brain can go wrong, but that doesn't validate psychiatric nosology and nomenclature which are purely hypothetical/provisional yet presented to the public as conclusive and literal as oncological diseases.

Yes, the brain is the most complex machine in the universe, which is what makes oversimplified reductionist psychiatric elucidations like 'chemical imbalances' and 'mental illnesses' pure nonsense. These are paid professionals who purposely mislead their patients into believing that they have unbridled expertise into the human mind/brain, when in reality, their entire educational, "diagnostic" and "treatment" systems are random darts thrown in the darkness - pure guessing games; models and constructs that only "exist" in the abstract.

Also, this response ignores the fact that many symptoms that often get blamed on the brain aren't neurological at all but behavioral/emotional. Of course the medical field, heavily influenced by drug companies, has inundated people with the idea that all human behaviors and feelings are caused by broken brains but anyone who thinks outside the pharma-funded philosophical box should get that this is little more than reductionist quackery.
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Old 11-03-2014, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Mount Monadnock, NH
715 posts, read 1,072,041 times
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for the OP: I'm curious, what have been the primary material you have read on 'mental illness", specifically on schizophrenia?
There are multiple schools of thought on psychiatry, which have evolved (some discredited) over time.
When you're talking about "mental illness", there are different catagories of it--some, like dementia and even schizophrenia have clear signs of alterations of brain structure which are seen on CT or MRI scans which make it a more measurable condition. When one sees clear signs of say brain atrophy and corresponding mental debility in that person--and see it getting worse as the atrophy gets worse...that is something measurable.
Other mental conditions, like some of the so-called personality disorders, have no known physical basis we can identify (ie brain scans, etc are essentially normal), but there is a clear impairment of carrying on a normal useful life day to day.

Great strides have been made even in the last ten years regarding this more physical aspect of some mental disorders (ie changes in the brain structure over time, specific abnormalities present) but many questions remain....but at least some of these have clear physical components.

I think it is best to not identify to what one is diagnosed with (that is, do not ever let it become a label or identifier of yourself)...but its healthy to at least recognize and understand that there is an issue, there is a condition which one has and treatment is viable... listen to what current medical knowledge has to offer regarding its treatment and how to cope with it...work around it.

Please do not be offended, but prior to your diagnosis what events and symptoms, generally speaking, lead you to a diagnosis? Obviously something had to occur for a diagnosis to come into your life---
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,798 posts, read 8,533,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
This is a testimonial anecdote, not scientific fact, hence the word "believe(d)".
You, sir, appear to be an overeducated fool. I LIVED WITH IT! I dealt with the various medications she had to take, and the mood swings caused by trying to adjust the meds for best results. I dealt with the trips to the psyche wards. I dealt with the memory loss due to electroshock therapy. I dealt with finding her in a plowed field in below zero weather dressed in summer clothes, waiting for "the mother ship" to come pick her up, and hauling her off to the hospital for yet another stay in the psyche ward. I saw the other people in the ward who were worse off than my wife. I talked to the psychologist and psychiatrists about her problems and my problems in coping with her problems.
When I finally couldn't take it anymore, and left, her family suddenly KNEW what the problems were in dealing with her and taking care of her. They did not "believe" there was a problem, they KNEW there were problems, and THEY had to do something. I was not around to help them, so they finally BELIEVED what I had been telling them.
DO NOT try your B.S. on somebody who has lived with it. WE KNOW what it is like to deal with mental illness, and WE KNOW how hard it is to fix the problems.
My second ex-wife ultimately quit taking her meds (again), and also quit taking her diabetes meds, went into a diabetic coma, died, and wasn't found until three days later.
You can blather all you want, but she absolutely WAS mentally ill!
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
6,322 posts, read 5,073,209 times
Reputation: 9781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't respond. I did say in the OP that I wanted to hear honest answers. I just don't want to hear unfalsifiable nonsense like "maybe you should just accept it. Get help" or "the OP is clearly crazy. Many people have MI and don't know it" when I've already explained in a logical/scientific way why I don't agree with psychiatry.

-- if you have "already explained it" than you are not interested in hearing from the other side.

No irony, bruh. I made the post specifically in light of my "diagnosis". I recently left the system entirely after a prolonged coercive outpatient experience.

--I am also interested in what symptoms they were reporting you have as another poster here is asking.


Lol, obviously not long enough to live up to basic standards of modern medicine like, you know, providing objective diagnostic exams or explaining what the "mind" is and how it can be medically quantified. As for antipsychiatry, there's more than enough controversy *within* the profession of psychiatry to provide me with cannon fodder, not to mention a good laugh, i.e. Al Frances (DSM-IV lead editor) being quoted saying that "there is no definition of a mental disorder. It's bull****": Inside the Battle to Define Mental Illness | WIRED

Lmao.


--I explain this in another post regarding our current lack of understanding of the mind. And EVERY profession has its own internal debates and extremists. Not just psych. Not even close. Also, comments like "lmao" makes it look like you minimize what others have to say. Again, this indicates you're not REALLY open to it. You just want to rant. Which is FINE by the way, but might be more honest to just admit that.



Irrelevant/semantics. The quack psychiatrists I saw weren't exactly rocket scientists or precise linguists either. The inpatient one who testified against me in court mispronounced "schizophrenic" as "schizophreniac" and the outpatient quack couldn't even spell. I counted at least a dozen spelling/grammatical errors in my records, including misspelling of the word "anosognosia". The clown wanted me to believe he was some kind of all-knowing arbiter of psychological health and couldn't even correctly spell his own field terminology.
-- I agree it is semantics. Yet I pointed it out to help make you be taken more seriously by those in the profession. You OTOH are trying to shame those involved in your care by nitpicking spelling and grammar. Everyone makes typos. Every profession.

--I hope that you are at least true to your logic and don't believe in God either since you can't see him.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:05 AM
 
283 posts, read 468,059 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100 View Post
Uhh, crazy people don't know they're crazy. Professionals must be the ones the diagnose.

Why? Who says the "professionals" are right? What gives them the right to decide who is and isn't crazy? What exactly is "crazy", by the way?
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