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Old 11-05-2014, 10:20 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
Reputation: 292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
Well there is the MMPI-2 as one "objective diagnostic exam."
MMPI isn't really objective at all. It's psychology 101 mumbo jumbo that's merely treated like it's objective because it has "standardized" scales.

It's a paper questionnaire. It doesn't prove brain pathology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
Other professionals are certified to diagnose mental illness as well: psychotherapist, general MD, social worker, etc.
Lol, and? This makes mental health legitimate/objective? Once you compare it to any other medical discipline, all the mumbo jumbo psych parlance matters not, and any reasonable person should see it for the sham that it is. Social workers diagnosing what are supposed to be literal brain disorders? Are you kidding me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
There is no difference between mental illness and physical illness.
Of course there is, and I already explained the difference - "mental illness" is subjective and diagnosed in an arbitrary, unfalsifiable and circular/self-referential way. Basically, it's the medicalization of non-medical behaviors and thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post

All illness is physical. Our technology just has not yet caught up. Our understanding of the brain and behavior is still very poor.
Reductionism 101. This assumes that behaviors and thoughts are "illnesses" to begin with. This is the fundamental assumption I'm calling into question with this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
I agree that some categories are too broad. In fact i think that schizophrenia with "negative symptoms" need to be looked at in an entirely different way. New research is showing a link between Aspergers and this type of schizophrenia which I think might be one of the reasons why Aspy diagnosis is rising- it is more socially accepted than schizophrenia.
Lol, Asperger's doesn't even "exist" anymore (it was taken out of DSM-5 due to political fallout from all the overdiagnosis) hence why I said diagnostic criteria is written in sand in the OP. These psychiatric labels are constructs created out of thin air, not literal, bona fide diseases. That's what you obviously don't get and refuse to accept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
If you think of schizophrenia like a cancer, there are hundreds of types of cancer. Cancer is "easier" to accept because we can SEE cancer. We can't YET see most mental illness in the brain. But we can most definitely see the manifestation of them via behaviors. Hence the term "behavioral illness."
Here's why I don't think of schizophrenia as like cancer - because unlike cancer, there's no evidence that the people who share the same schizophrenia "diagnosis" have the same brain pathology, or any brain pathology for that matter. The "disorder" is completely superficial, so the only possible explanation for why all the disparate symptomatology is grouped together is because the American Psychiatric Assocation says so. Cancers share proven biologically similar characteristics - schizophrenia symptoms don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
Imho, the reason you have so much problem in recognizing mental illness as credible is because YOU DO NOT SEE IT AS A PHYSICAL ILLNESS. This makes you just as dangerous and ignorant as people who tell depressed and suicidal people to "suck it up" and that they are weak. This attitude can drive someone to death who is severely depressed.
Lol, psychiatry drives people to death all by itself - look up at the links I provided on page 5 & 6 about suicide and early mortality in schizophrenia - it has very much *increased* in the modern era. All the rhetoric about treatment doesn't matter when, beneath the cloak of medical progress, people in the mental health system are completely disempowered and treated like either infantilized sheep or subhuman *things*, all because of some fake pseudoscientific label they've been assigned.

Also, this arrogant and uneducated quip completely ignores the fact that complete remission of 'schizophrenia' happens in up to 2/3 of cases in parts of the world. You completely ignored the links I posted about non-Western traditional communities around the world where people enjoy strong family support systems, are treated like normal members of society despite their "diagnosis", and have been frequently shown to fully recover from their "disorder" with little or no access to psychiatric drugs. Here's more links:

http://psychrights.org/research/Dige...salNoDrugs.pdf
Destigmatizing day-to-day practices: what developed countries can learn from developing countries
Full Recovery from Schizophrenia? | Brain Blogger
Epidemiology of Schizophrenia - ISPS-US: Dr. Koehler's Postings
CULTURAL FACTORS IN PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS

As you can see, encouraging adults with no proven biological impairment to be responsible and overcome their psychological issues isn't dangerous or ignorant - treating grown-ups like helpless children in a paternalistic and manipulative pseudo-medical bureaucracy is.
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:47 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
for the OP: I'm curious, what have been the primary material you have read on 'mental illness", specifically on schizophrenia?
I've read the gamut - from medical/psychiatric establishment literature to the most fringe antipsychiatry so-called scientologist antagonists. I happen to agree with the Szasz', Breggins and Grace Jackson's of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
There are multiple schools of thought on psychiatry, which have evolved (some discredited) over time.
When you're talking about "mental illness", there are different catagories of it--some, like dementia and even schizophrenia have clear signs of alterations of brain structure which are seen on CT or MRI scans which make it a more measurable condition. When one sees clear signs of say brain atrophy and corresponding mental debility in that person--and see it getting worse as the atrophy gets worse...that is something measurable.
I already explained this twice in this thread. Neuroimaging in psychiatry is largely junk science, despite all the hoopla to the contrary. The scans themselves are extremely problematic, and most fail to include drug-naive subjects, meaning researchers are seeing iatrogenic (medication-induced) brain damage and simply attributing it to organic pathology ("schizophrenia") in a reductionistic way (yes, "antipsychotic" drugs have been proven to cause brain dimunition). If the scans are legitimate, why aren't they ever used to diagnose from the outset, i.e. before medication is prescribed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
Other mental conditions, like some of the so-called personality disorders, have no known physical basis we can identify (ie brain scans, etc are essentially normal), but there is a clear impairment of carrying on a normal useful life day to day.
Psychosocial impairment, however detrimental, doesn't prove neurological impairment. This is a leap in logic that makes psychiatry fundamentally flawed as a medical practice. I'm not arguing it doesn't servea practice purpose, although much of this is overshadowed by the harm it causes people through stigma and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
Great strides have been made even in the last ten years regarding this more physical aspect of some mental disorders (ie changes in the brain structure over time, specific abnormalities present) but many questions remain....but at least some of these have clear physical components.
Nonsense. Psychiatrists have been posturing about discovering biomarkers since the 60s. There's still no evidence in 2014 that any mental disorders, even well-established ones like "schizophrenia", are actually biophysical because they are diagnosed in a superficial way, i.e. the doctor simply observes the patient and declares that they have XYZ disorder. There is no neuroscience in routine clinical practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
I think it is best to not identify to what one is diagnosed with (that is, do not ever let it become a label or identifier of yourself)...but its healthy to at least recognize and understand that there is an issue, there is a condition which one has and treatment is viable...
The only reason to believe there's a condition is because the doctor says so. Again, behaviors psychological trauma don't prove neurological illness - this is nothing but conjecture, and simply treated like scientific fact when it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
listen to what current medical knowledge has to offer regarding its treatment and how to cope with it...work around it.
The medical establishment, psychiatry in particular, is one of the most corrupt enterprises known to man, and despite the public's ignorance about its competence at treating "mental illness", the actual statistics prove that longterm clinical outcomes for major diagnostic categories is extremely poor and has only gotten worse in recent decades. Of course, most of the public is impressed by silly medical degrees and think doctors actually know what they're talking about when they blame their patients poor outcomes on their supposed "illness" instead of the brain-damaging drugs and paternalistic "care".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
Please do not be offended, but prior to your diagnosis what events and symptoms, generally speaking, lead you to a diagnosis? Obviously something had to occur for a diagnosis to come into your life---
A fight. That's it. No martians in my brain, no CIA conspiracies, no talking to myself. Just a fight. I also have reason to believe that the system is racist against black men, because we get diagnosed at significantly higher numbers than other groups, without explanation. But that's a whole different post.
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:54 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
You, sir, appear to be an overeducated fool. I LIVED WITH IT! I dealt with the various medications she had to take, and the mood swings caused by trying to adjust the meds for best results. I dealt with the trips to the psyche wards. I dealt with the memory loss due to electroshock therapy. I dealt with finding her in a plowed field in below zero weather dressed in summer clothes, waiting for "the mother ship" to come pick her up, and hauling her off to the hospital for yet another stay in the psyche ward. I saw the other people in the ward who were worse off than my wife. I talked to the psychologist and psychiatrists about her problems and my problems in coping with her problems.
When I finally couldn't take it anymore, and left, her family suddenly KNEW what the problems were in dealing with her and taking care of her. They did not "believe" there was a problem, they KNEW there were problems, and THEY had to do something. I was not around to help them, so they finally BELIEVED what I had been telling them.
DO NOT try your B.S. on somebody who has lived with it. WE KNOW what it is like to deal with mental illness, and WE KNOW how hard it is to fix the problems.
My second ex-wife ultimately quit taking her meds (again), and also quit taking her diabetes meds, went into a diabetic coma, died, and wasn't found until three days later.
You can blather all you want, but she absolutely WAS mentally ill!
This is still testimonial. I'm talking science, not anecdotes about psychosocial problems. Your wife's story is tragic, but it doesn't address the fundamental issues I raised in the OP. Also, you should do some research about psychotropic drugs and their propensity for indirectly causing the very symptoms they're designed to alleviate, instead of just blaming your wife's supposed illness. Much of the problem with mental health is that the effects of the "treatment" is often indistinguishable from the supposed initial "disorder".
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:09 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian Slums View Post
-- I agree it is semantics. Yet I pointed it out to help make you be taken more seriously by those in the profession. You OTOH are trying to shame those involved in your care by nitpicking spelling and grammar. Everyone makes typos. Every profession.

--I hope that you are at least true to your logic and don't believe in God either since you can't see him.
Believing in God is a personal choice people make and one that tends to have redemptive qualities. Psychiatric labels, on the other hand, are imposed and have limiting and even destructive consequences. I'm not against belief in all things that can't be seen - I'm merely holding psychiatry up to that standard because it's considered a medical science. Doctors in this so-called profession literally have the right to needle people up with drugs (I was nearly forced drugged myself) and conduct court-ordered evaluations for criminal trial, custody and other legal purposes but can't prove any of their supposed "diagnoses"? Their "diagnoses" can fundamentally change and ruin peoples lives socially, biologically and legally, yet they don't have to objectively prove it? Lunacy.

Last edited by Pookie Jenkins; 11-05-2014 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:17 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
Ya know what? I'm pretty fine with you not being allowed to have a gun.
Of course you do. Like all people who harbor bigotry against others, non-diagnosed people who think "mental illness" is real are perfectly fine with having the rights of the "diagnosed" taken away. Some of the biggest supporters of "mental health" subjugation are political "progressives" that can also be found in Pride Parades and women's abortion rallies. What irony.
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:10 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,623,696 times
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Can you link me to your fMRI studies on schizophrenia? Or your molecular biology studies on the relevant neurotransmitter receptors? After all the ex-cathedra pronouncements you are making here I'd like to see your data. Please show us. Show us your real science to challenge the "pseudoscience." Of course, you sound more than qualified to proclaim studies as pseudoscience.


Given the choice between the "professionals" you so casually disparage, and some guy from a court case on the internet making posts with preposterous titles and admittedly having an ax to grind - well ...


"Full-of-your-self" is the diagnosis - but you won't find it in the DSM.

Last edited by Marka; 11-06-2014 at 02:19 AM..
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:11 PM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Really. Can you link me to your fMRI studies on schizophrenia? Or your molecular biology studies on the relevant neurotransmitter receptors? After all the ex-cathedra pronouncements you are making here I'd like to see your data. Please show us. Show us your real science to challenge the "pseudoscience." Of course, you sound more than qualified to proclaim studies as pseudoscience.


Given the choice between the "professionals" you so casually disparage, and some guy from a court case on the internet making posts with preposterous titles and admittedly having an ax to grind - well ...


"Full-of-your-self" is the diagnosis - but you won't find it in the DSM.
Go through the whole post again. I've posted links to multiple studies 2-3 times already. If you can't find them, let me know.
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Northampton, Mass.
708 posts, read 1,056,666 times
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For the OP: yes, it is true that black men (and other groups, according to fairly recent studies) are diagnosed to a higher rate for schizophrenia than middle class-whites; the middle/upper middle class, on the other hand have a disproportionally higher rate of bipolar diagnosis...the reason for that odd disparity has been as one of perception, a covert racism and/of classism (the poor, in general, are more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia as well when compared to middle to upper classes, in general, who have a higher rate of bipolar diagnosis).
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can have very similar features and there is some debate as to how they really should be classified.

You seem well spoken, intelligent and its certainly healthy to question things like this, especially when it can have life changing consequences.
Its apparent you're confident in your beliefs regarding mental health professionals but please continue to keep an open mind.

Also, are you just as happy as you were before the events which occurred which led to your diagnosis? How has your life changed since that time in terms of daily activities and work, desires and goals?
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Old 11-06-2014, 06:07 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,491 posts, read 5,709,483 times
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I thought this thread may turn out to be an interesting/engaging one, but it (unfortunately and disappointingly) devolved into nothing more than b*tching and qu*vetching.

What follows derives from my own, quite personal, experiences. The specific problems/illnesses/issues within the general and quite broad category of "mental illness" are quite real, and they are quite deserving of efforts to cure/treat/ameloriate them. My first job after earning my bachelors in psychology was in a state mental hospital; it made the hospital in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest seem like a friggin' country club by comparison...

The first 25 years of my professional career were spent in the mental health/human services field. Simply put, I know most of the best and nearly all of the worst of the mental health field.

Y'all can pooh-pooh it all you want. Mental illness is real, it is really harmful, and it needs to be treated/ameliorated.

-- Nighteyes
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:51 AM
 
283 posts, read 465,987 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin023 View Post
For the OP: yes, it is true that black men (and other groups, according to fairly recent studies) are diagnosed to a higher rate for schizophrenia than middle class-whites; the middle/upper middle class, on the other hand have a disproportionally higher rate of bipolar diagnosis...the reason for that odd disparity has been as one of perception, a covert racism and/of classism (the poor, in general, are more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia as well when compared to middle to upper classes, in general, who have a higher rate of bipolar diagnosis).
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can have very similar features and there is some debate as to how they really should be classified.

You seem well spoken, intelligent and its certainly healthy to question things like this, especially when it can have life changing consequences.
Its apparent you're confident in your beliefs regarding mental health professionals but please continue to keep an open mind.

Also, are you just as happy as you were before the events which occurred which led to your diagnosis? How has your life changed since that time in terms of daily activities and work, desires and goals?
Well, as much as I'm reluctant it to admit it, my experience did teach me a thing or two about myself. I now pride myself on prioritizing personal liberty and questioning authority, for example. It's interesting how sometimes you don't know what you stand for as a person until you encounter something you know you're against.

I'm working/living independently and have so many goals I've only begun to accomplish. That's why I appear to have a chip on my shoulder. It's not to be a "jerk" (would use another word, but the mods...) but because I feel like I have to tear down all barriers and inhibitions if I want to live up to my potential and see all my dreams come true. This means labels and coercion of any kind have to go. I'm still angry - I get upset when I hear the usual stereotypes and generalizations about 'mental illness' from the media, but I also feel a sense of liberation. In some ways, I'm happier.
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