U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Health and Wellness > Mental Health
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-07-2014, 11:06 AM
 
283 posts, read 466,541 times
Reputation: 292

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
I thought this thread may turn out to be an interesting/engaging one, but it (unfortunately and disappointingly) devolved into nothing more than b*tching and qu*vetching.

What follows derives from my own, quite personal, experiences. The specific problems/illnesses/issues within the general and quite broad category of "mental illness" are quite real, and they are quite deserving of efforts to cure/treat/ameloriate them. My first job after earning my bachelors in psychology was in a state mental hospital; it made the hospital in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest seem like a friggin' country club by comparison...

The first 25 years of my professional career were spent in the mental health/human services field. Simply put, I know most of the best and nearly all of the worst of the mental health field.

Y'all can pooh-pooh it all you want. Mental illness is real, it is really harmful, and it needs to be treated/ameliorated.

-- Nighteyes
I don't think you understand the point of the post. I'm not arguing the underlying issues, called "symptoms", aren't real, but that there's scant evidence that such symptoms are absolutely, positively proof of medical illnesses, i.e. literal, bona fide diseases.

Also, many severe patients in institutions are that way because of the "treatment" itself and the cycle it creates - i.e. symptomatic guy gets locked up for erratic behavior, takes medication and then stops abruptly once released. The withdrawal effects of psychotropic drugs mimic the initial disorder*, so the guy then becomes even more psychotic and ends up back in the hospital. Just to speculate, a lot of what you saw in psych wards may have infact been iatrogenic (medication-induced) psychosis. The only reason it didn't happen to me is because I refused all meds.

* - Google "Joanna Moncrieff dopamine supersensitivity" for more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-07-2014, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,317,225 times
Reputation: 16831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Well, as much as I'm reluctant it to admit it, my experience did teach me a thing or two about myself. I now pride myself on prioritizing personal liberty and questioning authority, for example. It's interesting how sometimes you don't know what you stand for as a person until you encounter something you know you're against.

I'm working/living independently and have so many goals I've only begun to accomplish. That's why I appear to have a chip on my shoulder. It's not to be a "jerk" (would use another word, but the mods...) but because I feel like I have to tear down all barriers and inhibitions if I want to live up to my potential and see all my dreams come true. This means labels and coercion of any kind have to go. I'm still angry - I get upset when I hear the usual stereotypes and generalizations about 'mental illness' from the media, but I also feel a sense of liberation. In some ways, I'm happier.
I get that. I'm bp2 and while I believe the condition is real, when I was in treatments I also knew so much of it was being controlled by stress and triggers. Meds made me manic. Eventually, I made my own plan. I moved where there were no triggers. I very slowly took myself off the meds and I found a spot where I could relax. It's done wonders. The system never left time to recognize that triggers and the stress of living where you hated it made things so much worse. I still shift moods, mild ones and always have, and went back to coping how I always had.

I agree that the thing which makes it so much harder is this image of people who are 'mentally ill' which the public sees. Most people you'd never know. Yet we like labels and we are fascinated with extremes. The truth is that if one had a mental illness, but functions, and it becomes disclosed, the options around them will shrink. This is why many people will put up with things until they can't since its hard to unmake the label. But weather you believe the disease is real or not, by accepting it is you you give yourself to it. When you let go, and you can even if you recognize the disease and say it is not me then you start taking out those barriers. I personally think that we as people have variations and unless they get out of hand and become destructive we shouldn't call differing behaviors abnormal since its a matter of degree. But we live in a very conformist society which puts those outside the mainstream in a special box and makes them 'not normal' which is to imply wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2014, 12:39 PM
 
3,611 posts, read 2,056,348 times
Reputation: 1925
While I agree wholeheartedly with your stance against medication being very much anti-drug, what does it matter? Whether people want to call it a mental illness or psychological trauma, either way you slice it said person is messed up in the head especially since the brain controls everything. Physical illnesses can cause mental problems and vice versa. I'm sure you know all about that with your anxiety right?

Personally I don't trust doctors but I do know one thing. There is something off about me to the point that it is disabling. Some of it stems from situations in my life but some of it is just in my DNA so it's not always a problem because it makes me unique but it does make it difficult to be successful. Maybe there are ways that it can be fixed but even if on the rare chance it can be, it will be nearly impossible. If nothing was wrong with me then I would get a job by now.

I don't think there is anything wrong with labels as long as you're not saying it to a person to be malicious or making them feel like they don't have a choice (meaning a doctor pushing drugs). It's just like how some people identify as pansexual instead of bisexual. If they want to call themselves that there's nothing wrong with it. You seem to have a problem with labels in general (maybe I'm wrong) but if I self-identify as a true Aquarius what does it matter to you especially if it's an accurate term? If in some ways I bask in it/like that about myself is the label still wrong?

I do think though that there should stop being such a stigma against mental illnesses. It is said that if employers think you have a mental illness they won't hire you. That is very wrong. Just because I have something going on not right upstairs doesn't mean I can't do the job I'm applying for. The only problem I have is getting there. That's what's disabling. I can't win anyone over and show them that I can do the job or at least not better than the competition. Someone is always going to look better than me so I'll just fail.

Last edited by Nickchick; 11-10-2014 at 12:54 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2014, 12:02 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 5,698,785 times
Reputation: 12955
I stopped reading on pg 5. My wife is one of the "quacks" that the OP so eloquently puts it. So you can guess where I stand. I'm not going to get into it with the OP. I will say that I find the thread very interesting though because of how well the OP makes his points and argues his thoughts.

There are of course many valid and replicate-able studies that show the effect of drugs, CBT, etc.I guess the bottom line is that irrespective of all of it is the fact that people find help and relief through psychiatry. It's too bad the OP had bad experiences with the mental health system. It's even more of a shame that the OP invests his mental energy into this...there are many places his mind could be put to better use. Here's my best advice to the OP:

Since you feel so strongly OP, go study this quack field. Sounds like a crazy suggestion eh? Well, do it. Go earn yourself an MD and specialize in psychiatry. You really want to prove something? You really want the right people to listen? You really want to make a change? That's the best way to do it. From the inside. I'm completely serious. You seem passionate about this and I can respect that. So do something about it. Ranting on the Interweb will get you nowhere but more frustrated. Go study, earn an MD so that people will listen, and argue your points. You'll be taken more seriously. Because as it stands now, you're just a smart mental patient.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: West Palm Beach
14 posts, read 13,578 times
Reputation: 20
Mental illness is real - yes it is in your head. But there is no retraining your brain. Most is chemical imbalance which no matter what sort of intensive training you try it won't work. It's hereditary, comes from TBI, PTSD and other traumas. Once you have it or better said once you accept that you have it and seek treatment, persons with a mental disability can sometimes lead a fairly normal life. But it does always come back at various times, unexpected, triggered and takes over. It's bad enough having to live with a condition but what people around us do see is that how they treat us or place a stigma upon us it makes it worse. I have to hand it to my biggest supporter - my wife. She has had seen me go through huge ups/downs, work place discrimination, added a pit. tumor and magnify my experiences. Never once been violent - never once in an argument at work yet the ordeal they put me thru was absurd - 3.5 months out of work.

So is mental illness real - yes. But the uneducated public make it worse for us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2014, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,317,225 times
Reputation: 16831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokir72 View Post
Mental illness is real - yes it is in your head. But there is no retraining your brain. Most is chemical imbalance which no matter what sort of intensive training you try it won't work. It's hereditary, comes from TBI, PTSD and other traumas. Once you have it or better said once you accept that you have it and seek treatment, persons with a mental disability can sometimes lead a fairly normal life. But it does always come back at various times, unexpected, triggered and takes over. It's bad enough having to live with a condition but what people around us do see is that how they treat us or place a stigma upon us it makes it worse. I have to hand it to my biggest supporter - my wife. She has had seen me go through huge ups/downs, work place discrimination, added a pit. tumor and magnify my experiences. Never once been violent - never once in an argument at work yet the ordeal they put me thru was absurd - 3.5 months out of work.

So is mental illness real - yes. But the uneducated public make it worse for us.
Thanks for saying that. Everyone has their moments, but if you have a mental illness, and its known, unlike shrugging it off like most people do with 'normal' people, its assumed that we're upset or mad or sad because of the illness. We might just genuinely be upset for a reason or mad because of a jerk or sad because something sad happened. But the first reaction we get is ohhh, they're going off....

This can extend to professionals. Say your feeling down a lot. Maybe its because your neighbor and spouse scream and throw things daily and your tense, wondering when they'll erupt. Or your old dog is not doing well and you feel worried and sad. But somehow the expectation is that we shouldn't ever feel down. Life isn't like that and with no time to talk about it you get the we'll add to your meds mantra when there is no need to since it won't help.

This is one reason some people won't admit to a problem until they have to since they don't want a stamp on the forehead.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2014, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Poshawa, Ontario
2,986 posts, read 3,464,621 times
Reputation: 5622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Why do people believe 'mental illness' is real?
Answer: Richard Chase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2014, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
6,339 posts, read 3,202,659 times
Reputation: 3113
Mental illness is very real. Been there! Lost my son to it!

I've been to more than one shrink. Some are helpful, some not so much. The last one listened to me and put me on meds that met my requested requirements. Those helped but the biggest shift came about from therapeutic supplements and eating healthy. I cut out all crap from my diet and introduced positively healthy foods. I am convinced that nutrition plays a vital role in mental health.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-21-2014, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
51,673 posts, read 40,621,588 times
Reputation: 72587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
No emotions or name calling here, I'd like to hear honest answers. I just notice how so many people are quick to blindly defend the so-called "mental health" system, yet they almost always seem to want "treatment" for others rather than themselves. Then when skeptics like me decry the system for its abuses and excesses, advocates resort to throwing around hollow pejoratives like 'crazy' (which reinforces stigma & belies their whole support of people getting diagnosed/treated) and 'scientologist'.

Scientology has nothing to do with it though, and all the petty bickering that goes on around this topic across internet forums fails to address the underlying fraud inherent in psychiatry:

-Diagnoses are subjective/arbitrary (no objective clinical tests for any of the 300+ labels psychiatrists call 'mental disorders'. Why?)

-Diagnoses are unfalsifiable (impossible to disprove, i.e. the doctor simply makes up an unscientific decree by fiat...no way to argue against it)

-Diagnoses are circular/self-referencing, i.e. psychiatrists say people hear voices because they have schizophrenia, but the only way they know anyone has schizophrenia is because they hear voices. Perceived symptoms alone validate illnesses, and illnesses are solely validated by symptoms.

-Diagnostic criteria is written in sand; the DSM field guide has been revised seven times with multiple contradictory changes in order to fit the cultural zeitgeist of the moment, i.e. homosexuality and women disobeying their husbands ("hysteria") were disorders just decades ago.

-Diagnostic categories are catch-alls in that they lack discrete boundaries and have unexplained heterogeneous symptomatology, i.e. DSM criteria for bipolar, major depression, schiz etc. is so broad that two different people can share the same "diagnosis" with no shared symptoms.

-Descriptive clinical features ('manic', 'psychotic' etc.) are reified as disease manifestations but more aptly amount to social value judgements, because they're purely behavioral and have no verifiable physiological cause. This explains where the (inherent) social stigma comes from.

-Medication efficacy is completely testimonial and akin to religious conviction, as subjects in hundreds of double-blind trials across drug classes consistently respond to both medications and placebos alike, i.e. psych drugs are clinically indistinguishable from innocuous dummy pills, and can't be proven to do anything medically beneficial.

-Psychotropic drugs have been proven to *cause* and *enhance* psychiatric symptoms and regulators know about it, i.e. FDA blackbox warnings about "antidepressant" SSRIs causing suicidal ideation, whilst suicidal ideation is simultaneously considered an organic symptom.

-The psychiatric profession has yet to elucidate what a normal baseline 'chemical balance' looks like, nor has it supplied a compelling definition of what 'the mind' is and how it can be medically quantified (hint: it can't) or what the difference between 'mental disorders' and brain diseases are. The whole field is logically groundless without such explanations.

-Global epidemiologic studies have consistently proven that longterm exposure to psychotropic drugs and the "mental health" system leads to permanent disability and premature mortality, whereas poor developing world patients tend to fully recover from even the most debilitating "mental disorders" due to strong family support systems in traditional societies, and limited access to psychiatric drugs/bureaucracy.

So is bigotry against the "mentally ill" so entrenched that people are willing to ignore and even support this destructive pseudoscience no matter what? Or is this just a secularized generation that seeks convenient materialist explanations for all human phenomona, even when such explanations don't make sense or hold up to logical scrunity? Either way, as a "diagnosed" so-called schizophrenic, I'll say it loud no matter what doctors, the government or "society" thinks, from the kids doped up on Ritalin to the eldery having their brains zapped with electroshock to the homeless coerced into outpatient offices - psychiatry is a straight up scam.
It's very common for people who have a mental illness to deny that they have one. Many people find the diagnosis to be insulting, or devastating, or their own mental illness and the subsequent effect it has on altering one's perception of reality makes it very difficult for them to accept the diagnosis.

I think you may fall into this category. I'm not saying that to insult you.

Let me ask you something - how do you feel about taking the medication that's been prescribed to you?

Let me ask you a few more questions:

1. How many times have you been terminated from work? How many months out of each year do you hold down a full time job? If you work full time, how many years in a row have you done so?

2. Have you ever been arrested or has anyone ever pressed charges against you prior to this incident?

3. Do you feel that you are constantly being targeted by "da man" or by those who think they have power over you - unfairly treated, unfairly disciplined, etc?

4. Has a significant other ever accused you of abuse, or of being overly controlling, or of attempting to isolate them or control their lives?

5. Are you in a long term relationship now? Do you have issues maintaining a long term relationship?

I'm not saying that any one of these would prove that you have a mental illness. I wouldn't even say that chronic unemployment or under employment or multiple terminations, arrests, lawsuits, convictions, accusations of abuse, bar fights, etc would prove that you are mentally ill. However, mentally ill people often do have such issues in their lives.

Without going into extensive detail (though I don't mind answering any questions you may have), let's just say that yeah - I'm pretty well versed in mental illness issues and the effects that mental illness have on an individual - and their loved ones.

Last edited by KathrynAragon; 11-21-2014 at 08:53 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-21-2014, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
51,673 posts, read 40,621,588 times
Reputation: 72587
Quote:
Originally Posted by YonqueD View Post
The people I have known who claimed to have a "mental illness" simply had poor coping skills. Some of them, too, liked the drugs. They were legal and let them escape reality.

Personally, I prefer to feel real emotions rather than be zoned out all the time, even if those emotions are occasionally unpleasant.
Personally, I prefer that my brother doesn't hear voices telling him that I'm trying to send him messages carved into the skins of baked potatoes that I throw out into his yard in the middle of the night.

Personally, I don't like it when my family's homeplace makes the evening news because a SWAT team and a bomb squad has been called out because of my brother's erratic actions caused by his paranoid schizophrenia.

Personally, I prefer the brother I talked with last night for over an hour - the treated one, on the correct meds, who is intelligent, loving, who makes sense when we talk, and who is doing so well that he actually leads recovery group classes for those who have just begun treatment for their very real mental illnesses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Health and Wellness > Mental Health
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top