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Old 11-21-2014, 08:53 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,632 times
Reputation: 16

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Pookie Jenkins You ask many questions but without the intention of getting answers. If you were truly searching for answers to your questions you wouldn't be ask them on a city-data internet forum. I feel certain in this assertion because I can't believe that with all the resources available on the internet and in "real life" an articulate individual like yourself would choose this forum as your source for information surrounding mental illness. I think that's clear. What's not clear is your motivation for asking your questions here, to argue, to pontificate, because you're bored, perhaps a combination. It seems like it would be a waste of your valuable time what ever is driving it.

Regards,
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:08 AM
 
65 posts, read 70,479 times
Reputation: 45
Default what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
No emotions or name calling here, I'd like to hear honest answers. I just notice how so many people are quick to blindly defend the so-called "mental health" system, yet they almost always seem to want "treatment" for others rather than themselves. Then when skeptics like me decry the system for its abuses and excesses, advocates resort to throwing around hollow pejoratives like 'crazy' (which reinforces stigma & belies their whole support of people getting diagnosed/treated) and 'scientologist'.

Scientology has nothing to do with it though, and all the petty bickering that goes on around this topic across internet forums fails to address the underlying fraud inherent in psychiatry:

-Diagnoses are subjective/arbitrary (no objective clinical tests for any of the 300+ labels psychiatrists call 'mental disorders'. Why?)

-Diagnoses are unfalsifiable (impossible to disprove, i.e. the doctor simply makes up an unscientific decree by fiat...no way to argue against it)

-Diagnoses are circular/self-referencing, i.e. psychiatrists say people hear voices because they have schizophrenia, but the only way they know anyone has schizophrenia is because they hear voices. Perceived symptoms alone validate illnesses, and illnesses are solely validated by symptoms.

-Diagnostic criteria is written in sand; the DSM field guide has been revised seven times with multiple contradictory changes in order to fit the cultural zeitgeist of the moment, i.e. homosexuality and women disobeying their husbands ("hysteria") were disorders just decades ago.

-Diagnostic categories are catch-alls in that they lack discrete boundaries and have unexplained heterogeneous symptomatology, i.e. DSM criteria for bipolar, major depression, schiz etc. is so broad that two different people can share the same "diagnosis" with no shared symptoms.

-Descriptive clinical features ('manic', 'psychotic' etc.) are reified as disease manifestations but more aptly amount to social value judgements, because they're purely behavioral and have no verifiable physiological cause. This explains where the (inherent) social stigma comes from.

-Medication efficacy is completely testimonial and akin to religious conviction, as subjects in hundreds of double-blind trials across drug classes consistently respond to both medications and placebos alike, i.e. psych drugs are clinically indistinguishable from innocuous dummy pills, and can't be proven to do anything medically beneficial.

-Psychotropic drugs have been proven to *cause* and *enhance* psychiatric symptoms and regulators know about it, i.e. FDA blackbox warnings about "antidepressant" SSRIs causing suicidal ideation, whilst suicidal ideation is simultaneously considered an organic symptom.

-The psychiatric profession has yet to elucidate what a normal baseline 'chemical balance' looks like, nor has it supplied a compelling definition of what 'the mind' is and how it can be medically quantified (hint: it can't) or what the difference between 'mental disorders' and brain diseases are. The whole field is logically groundless without such explanations.

-Global epidemiologic studies have consistently proven that longterm exposure to psychotropic drugs and the "mental health" system leads to permanent disability and premature mortality, whereas poor developing world patients tend to fully recover from even the most debilitating "mental disorders" due to strong family support systems in traditional societies, and limited access to psychiatric drugs/bureaucracy.

So is bigotry against the "mentally ill" so entrenched that people are willing to ignore and even support this destructive pseudoscience no matter what? Or is this just a secularized generation that seeks convenient materialist explanations for all human phenomona, even when such explanations don't make sense or hold up to logical scrunity? Either way, as a "diagnosed" so-called schizophrenic, I'll say it loud no matter what doctors, the government or "society" thinks, from the kids doped up on Ritalin to the eldery having their brains zapped with electroshock to the homeless coerced into outpatient offices - psychiatry is a straight up scam.


You talk to much,over analyzing everything
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:51 PM
 
1 posts, read 776 times
Reputation: 18
I struggle with this a lot, and it's the one of the biggest reasons I'm doubting whether or not I want to become a psychiatrist, even though that is the path I am taking at the moment.

I have plenty of experience with the mental health system (as a patient) and agree with the statement that you are dependent on a single person's opinion of what is wrong with you as a diagnosis.

It's also the case that many patients could be diagnosed with several disorders based on their symptoms. So you are pretty much a victim of the bias of 'professionals' based on what they have most experience with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
-Diagnoses are subjective/arbitrary (no objective clinical tests for any of the 300+ labels psychiatrists call 'mental disorders'. Why?)
This is a problem with the nature of the work. It's really looking for "diseases" of the "soul" (to avoid saying mind). When the mere existence of the soul can not be objectively established, how do you expect diagnoses to be objectively established?

This does not change the fact that I don't believe a single human being has the capacity/right to accurately decide when one has such an affliction or not. Every diagnosis is, in my opinion, an hypothesis, and no more than that. How can they not be? The same thing for any and all psychological studies. People could be lying about their symptoms. You just never know for sure.

Quote:
-Diagnoses are unfalsifiable (impossible to disprove, i.e. the doctor simply makes up an unscientific decree by fiat...no way to argue against it)
I'm not sure how to make people/authorities that trust psychiatrists 100%, even in legal matters, see that they are merely humans with an opinion based on VERY little interaction with a patient, in ONE setting (usually) or based on things written by OTHERS as THEY experience a patient.

Quote:
-Diagnoses are circular/self-referencing, i.e. psychiatrists say people hear voices because they have schizophrenia, but the only way they know anyone has schizophrenia is because they hear voices. Perceived symptoms alone validate illnesses, and illnesses are solely validated by symptoms.
How does this differ from any other physical disease? A blood test showing elevated blood sugar levels (a symptom) is used to validate "diabetes". What's the difference.

B.T.W., maybe you're simplifying consciously, but a person hearing voices equals psychosis, not schizophrenia. Psychosis is a part of schizophrenia, but is not equal to it.

Quote:
-Diagnostic criteria is written in sand; the DSM field guide has been revised seven times with multiple contradictory changes in order to fit the cultural zeitgeist of the moment, i.e. homosexuality and women disobeying their husbands ("hysteria") were disorders just decades ago.
It's something they teach in psychology, that "normal" is subjective. I think the basis for making up a disease or labeling a person as ill is based on their inability to function in any way. Still, I agree with your implied assertion that whether someone that is "different" is automatically ill or not.

Then again, hallucinations are one part of the field of psychiatry that can hardly be ignored as being an illness/dysfunction.

Quote:
-Descriptive clinical features ('manic', 'psychotic' etc.) are reified as disease manifestations but more aptly amount to social value judgements, because they're purely behavioral and have no verifiable physiological cause. This explains where the (inherent) social stigma comes from.
Well it is known that physical injury to the brain can cause behavioral changes. So there is physical physiology in certain behaviors. It's not a leap to think that certain behaviors are possibly manifestations of "disturbances" or at least a differing of the physiology in the brain.

Whether or not people that are manic, and as a result experience increased difficulty in their life are to be treated as "ill" or not... I don't know. Maybe they would survive in a different society, and more happily than the "mentally healthy" individual. But the question is: if drugs / therapy can modify this behavior into one that is socially more favorable, should we do it, or not?

The same question can be posed for genetic illnesses: Should we let them die off with natural selection as argument (eugenics) or treat them as best we can and give them the best quality of life possible?

Quote:
-Diagnostic categories are catch-alls in that they lack discrete boundaries and have unexplained heterogeneous symptomatology, i.e. DSM criteria for bipolar, major depression, schiz etc. is so broad that two different people can share the same "diagnosis" with no shared symptoms.
Not to mention frequent co-morbidity.

Then again, saying someone is hallucinating does not mean they will all hallucinate the same things. It means they have sensory perceptions not originating from reality/the outer physical world.

Quote:
-Medication efficacy is completely testimonial and akin to religious conviction, as subjects in hundreds of double-blind trials across drug classes consistently respond to both medications and placebos alike, i.e. psych drugs are clinically indistinguishable from innocuous dummy pills, and can't be proven to do anything medically beneficial.
I don't have the knowledge/statistics to talk about this. However, benzodiazepines do help calm a panicking individual, and Ritalin does help improve focus and attention in those lacking it, as I'm sure there are more types of medicine with effects that are clear and beneficial.

Quote:
-Psychotropic drugs have been proven to *cause* and *enhance* psychiatric symptoms and regulators know about it, i.e. FDA blackbox warnings about "antidepressant" SSRIs causing suicidal ideation, whilst suicidal ideation is simultaneously considered an organic symptom.
Again, I don't have the statistics to argue about this. With this in mind, how sure can we be the suicidal tendencies are cause by the medicine? Especially since this side-effect is, of course, only witnessed in already depressed individuals. I don't feel this has anything to do with the discussion though.

Quote:
-The psychiatric profession has yet to elucidate what a normal baseline 'chemical balance' looks like, nor has it supplied a compelling definition of what 'the mind' is and how it can be medically quantified (hint: it can't) or what the difference between 'mental disorders' and brain diseases are. The whole field is logically groundless without such explanations.
Quote:
-Global epidemiologic studies have consistently proven that longterm exposure to psychotropic drugs and the "mental health" system leads to permanent disability and premature mortality, whereas poor developing world patients tend to fully recover from even the most debilitating "mental disorders" due to strong family support systems in traditional societies, and limited access to psychiatric drugs/bureaucracy.
Again, I don't have the statistics. I have my doubts about your statements. What kind of disorders are we talking about? What exactly entails "full recovery"? When talking about mental disorders the environment has a huge influence, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Most mental disorders require therapy, not only drugs, to treat. And drugs are usually meant as an aid, not a cure. Are you saying poor developing world patients have a culture with family support systems better than in affluent countries? If so, that's a different discussion.

Quote:
So is bigotry against the "mentally ill" so entrenched that people are willing to ignore and even support this destructive pseudoscience no matter what? Or is this just a secularized generation that seeks convenient materialist explanations for all human phenomona, even when such explanations don't make sense or hold up to logical scrunity? Either way, as a "diagnosed" so-called schizophrenic, I'll say it loud no matter what doctors, the government or "society" thinks, from the kids doped up on Ritalin to the eldery having their brains zapped with electroshock to the homeless coerced into outpatient offices - psychiatry is a straight up scam.
Quote:
I care because the hospitalization and "diagnosis" are both in my permanent record. I've also lost my 2nd amendment right to purchase a weapon, and the Supreme Court has recently ruled that psychiatric "expertise" can override an individuals right to freedom from self-incrimination (5th amendment).
What does this have to do with the discussion? Your behavior led to this.

Quote:
Even today, questioning a psychiatrist after he/she has already diagnosed you is a no-no. They've literally developed a construct for it called "lack of insight".
I've run into problems with this myself. I already said I disagree with the power a subjective opinion of one individual though (and the subsequent coloring of further experiences with said patient by others based on a diagnosis - due to the power it is given)
This, however, is a discussion on the effects of having your behaviors analyzed and interpreted in a certain way. Not whether or not mental illnesses are real.

Quote:
I'm not arguing peoples psychological/behavioral issues aren't real. I'm arguing that such issues by themselves don't prove anyone has a brain disease that can be accurately "diagnosed" by a psychiatrist who simply looks at the patient and declares they have XYZ disorder.
Science is not far enough to provide objective tests, based on physical properties that correlate with psychological issues. I agree there are idiotic, stupid psychiatrists that diagnose **** based on too little information, in other words, diagnose patients they know nothing about. I believe there must be countless misdiagnoses out there, from my experience with the mental health field. This does not mean that there isn't some sort of pathology in the "soul" of a person. It just means we can't objectively test for it. This is my problem with the professional field of psychology/psychiatry, and the reason I doubt whether or not to get into it myself. But you seem to argue that there is no such thing as mental illness.

Quote:
It's simple. Behaviors and psychological issues =/= brain disease. Behaviors and psychological issues = behaviors and psychological issues.
Yes, and these issues have been defined and categorized into what are called mental disorders. And as I already said, physiological disturbances can cause behavioral and psychological issues. That would make it a physical illness.

Quote:
I myself suffered from extreme anxiety, panic attacks and obsessive compulsions as a teenager, but guess what? I don't anymore because I simply decided to take control over my own life and mind when I became an adult, and my symptoms have gradually dissipated to almost nothing today at age 29. That's part of why I'm confident that I don't have some incurable and unrelenting disorder called "schizophrenia." It's a fake label based on the judgement of a miseducated quack. Nothing more.
I'm glad you recovered. I too have suffered from certain compulsions as a younger person I have recovered by myself from. I even had a hospitalization that helped me with nothing. The problem was I had to change my state of mind, see myself and the world differently, and stop giving my obsessions the power I did give them. Was I "mentally ill"? I don't know. I was certainly in hell with my mind, addicted to unhealthy obsessions, tormented with irrational urges to perform actions that did not help me and had unpleasant effects on those that loved me. My behavior was destructive, and my set of opinions/beliefs were such that I had no chance, the result would be self-destruction, unproductivity, just overall negative effects for my life in the society we live in.
I think better therapy would maybe have helped me. I mean - support and criticism on my beliefs that goes against guidelines/boundaries of professional therapy. My way of viewing the world and dealing with my feelings brought negative effects to my life. Does this mean I was "ill"?
I don't know. But I sure was in need of "treatment", of change. I think the mental health world would define this as a disorder, and one that is treatable with therapy (and possibly, drugs).
Behavioral issues have a cause. That cause is often beliefs/thoughts. These are powerful things that have major effects on us, and is not easy to change. I guess the state of holding these improper sometimes irrational thoughts/beliefs have been classified as being "ill".
Quote:
What part of this don't you people get? The whole diagnostic process in psychiatry is fraud. It's that simple.
I don't know man, the mind and it's workings is a big mystery to science, and if we didn't do anything until we completely understood it we would never have made the big technological advances we have made in the time that humans exist. You can't ignore all behavioral issues until there is unmistakable proof of their origins, it's just the nature of the field. Behavioral issues are real, and you identify them by observing them. It's not perfect, but there currently is no other option. What I want for psychiatry (objectivity) is, probably, unattainable. So what do you do now?

As for the difference between mental disorders and brain disease: They overlap. Brain diseases, as I understand them, but then again I have no experience, are usually purely physical disturbances in the brain. This can lead to physical and mental issues. Mental disorders include disturbances in how your mind is wired, as I explained about beliefs/thoughts above. They can be purely non-physical in nature, although science might change that perception in the future. We just don't have enough knowledge to know, we just know that there is a problem, and certain studies suggest physical abnormalities linked to these mental disorders.
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Old 11-22-2014, 10:05 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
7,377 posts, read 13,871,101 times
Reputation: 11758
The voices in my head told me to ignore this thread, but here I am anyway.
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Old 11-22-2014, 10:20 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
7,377 posts, read 13,871,101 times
Reputation: 11758
To support the OP's point (to a certain extent), this from the Mayo Clinic website:
Quote:
The American Psychiatric Association eliminated the previous subtypes of schizophrenia — paranoid, disorganized, catatonic, undifferentiated and residual — because of poor reliability. These subtypes weren't shown to be valid and didn't help in determining which treatment might be best for a specific subtype.
Nevertheless, schizophrenia is one of the easier diagnoses because of its unusual aspects, namely delusions and hallucinations. Disorganized thinking may also be present and that certainly does not describe the OP, who is very bright.

In the nose?!: Markers of Schizophrenia Are Found in the Nose | R&D - WSJ

And it is true that earlier editions of the DSM are laughable today, and just an opinion, but I think the DSM-V took a step or two backwards as well.
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
6,424 posts, read 3,248,569 times
Reputation: 3147
Can we differentiate between disease and illness please? Rabies is a disease (of the brain) and it make the sufferer ill - very ill. Ebola is a disease and so on. Schizophrenia is an illness (or disorder), not a disease. An illness can exist without a disease and a disease without illness but usually a disease will make a person ill.

Just to be clear on what we are talking about.

Thank you.
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