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I recently discovered some shocking (for me) findings regarding the effectiveness/efficacy of antidepressants as a whole. The antidepressant pharmaceutical industry seems to have a dark but highly profitable secret that many do not know about.
Yes your very right....... All they are mostly is about $$$$$$$$ notr helping someone!
These things like Paxel and stuff can be very dangerous! (Depending on ones mind condition)
One other thing may be at work here besides placebo effect and that is what we do not know about human physiology--which is A LOT. What we do know is just the tip of the iceberg and lots of these chemicals work in ways that we do not understand yet: the most common description for drugs I look up in "Clinical Pharmacology" is that "the mechanism of [name of drug] is not fully understood" (this is overwhelmingly the case in psychiatric drugs).
With that being said, however, I am a huge proponent of the placebo effect. If it work, it works, who cares how--that is on an individual basis. Drugs being tested for clinical effects should have some sort of observation that there actually is a benefit before pushing it as a possible solution for people. Then it can be used as something to try if the risks outweigh the benefits for the person and if it works for the individual, it doesn't matter if it's the drug or placebo effect or something that we don't understand.
The worse I ever had was one of the mood stabilizers. I'm prone to sudden shifts in mood if under pressure. Mostly its sudden downs with uneasy times when things are uncertain but it will start a fear which just won't go away. I no longer have any but there were these small blue pills I ONLY took one in such a case. It zonded me out and I didn't worry about anything and took over a day to wear off.
I quit getting them since they were too easy a way out. I'm a very analitical person, and will 'break down' all the particulars. But if the 'what ifs' take over first its impossible to do that. I used to go to a volunteer group where you could talk about this sort of thing, but there doesn't seem to be much of a dbsa group here, and there's no way to get there.
My own experience is that most doctors don't want to spend the time to get a really real view of how patients individually deal with especially mood disorders, and the idea of a pill which wipes out all that feeling means you seem 'okay'. But its still important that you learn to accept and deal with them too, and that which has been banished just waits until you're not paying attention and reminds you its still there. And it doesn't need to be a pill. If you can talk about the thing, and let it go with the minimum of chemicals you are MUCH better off.
While I understand the soap box here of no meds are better, the true is that meds do help people when there is a need.
We all agree everyone is different. I'm happy that some here have found results by working thru the system, listening to their bodies, and using common sense, along with research. Alternative medicine, whatever.
But you're pushing your agenda on the wrong forum.
What I'm reading is this negativity towards medicine, that it's not always necessary, and doctors when someone on this forum may be looking for answers. You're playing God with this and it's fine you're taking care of yourself and your own needs but people with mental disorders don't always have that judgement. They need the doctor, the support groups, the counseling, the meds, and the time. For them it helps to have people to talk to, they can't do this alone. They aren't you and your thread here is preaching in one direction which may send them on a downward spiral.
While I understand the soap box here of no meds are better, the true is that meds do help people when there is a need.
We all agree everyone is different. I'm happy that some here have found results by working thru the system, listening to their bodies, and using common sense, along with research. Alternative medicine, whatever.
But you're pushing your agenda on the wrong forum.
What I'm reading is this negativity towards medicine, that it's not always necessary, and doctors when someone on this forum may be looking for answers. You're playing God with this and it's fine you're taking care of yourself and your own needs but people with mental disorders don't always have that judgement. They need the doctor, the support groups, the counseling, the meds, and the time. For them it helps to have people to talk to, they can't do this alone. They aren't you and your thread here is preaching in one direction which may send them on a downward spiral.
I agree with you 100%. We need a lot of options and although it may burn some people's britches to acknowledge it--sometimes, for some people, medications ARE the answer. I know the OP didn't want people's personal stories, but before I get called out for talking out my a**, an antidepressant WAS the answer for me. And I certainly can't be the only one out there (I think one other person on this forum said the same thing worked for them, but of that I can't be a hundred percent sure of that b/c of my faulty memory).
I get the negativity toward antidepressants. It may appear something doctors like to use because it seems like a quick fix; and in many cases that may be what is going on. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Antidepressants can be useful for a lot of people. What needs to be worked on is using them for the right situation, not just throwing them out there for everyone and expecting it to work.
While I understand the soap box here of no meds are better, the true is that meds do help people when there is a need.
We all agree everyone is different. I'm happy that some here have found results by working thru the system, listening to their bodies, and using common sense, along with research. Alternative medicine, whatever.
But you're pushing your agenda on the wrong forum.
What I'm reading is this negativity towards medicine, that it's not always necessary, and doctors when someone on this forum may be looking for answers. You're playing God with this and it's fine you're taking care of yourself and your own needs but people with mental disorders don't always have that judgement. They need the doctor, the support groups, the counseling, the meds, and the time. For them it helps to have people to talk to, they can't do this alone. They aren't you and your thread here is preaching in one direction which may send them on a downward spiral.
No, its not anti doctor. And it's something which those who are 'new' need to know, that pdocs are not automatically correct and if real concerns and feelings which matter need to matter to the doctor too. And if the whole treatment is try these pills, its not enough and they are failing.
It's anti absolute belief that medication is the ONLY relief and if it takes wiping out your life to a drug to get that effect is it still okay. For me, all those pills did was mess up my health. Some worked, some didn't, and some worked like a sledge hammer. And when I'd complain, it was always the same mantra. Do what I say. I know more than you. And you either need to live with the side effects since you need to follow the program or I'm done with you. If your doctor gives you ten minutes and a script and rushes you out the door, then you are not properly being served by this 'doctor'. Mood problems can't just be wished away with a pill. And no one pill effects everyone the same, it being their responsibility to monitor this before pushing their quick fixes.
My answer is don't let the door hit you in the face when I close it. A DOCTOR treats the whole person, not just the parts you took instruction about. If its beyond your experience, then before you tell your patient to live with it get them to a physical doctor, and get a good medical exam and continue to work WITH them, not just write out your scrips as a good computer app could do.
I'm one of the not so standard models. I know I have to cook things differently some times. I have to make sure pills aren't slow dissolve since my body doesn't do that. I react oddly to many medications, and I asked about side effects. No answer, but it was getting close to the hour and I'd already used more than my appointed time. I got a strong sense of I don't know why but its your problem. Maybe I'd just go away.
I have experience in two counties with their pdocs, in different states. Pills, or capsuels and some of what's inside them just don't work the same on me. Or may not do anything or may be one giant dose of the drug as its timed breakdown is all at once. Then its zombie time. But all but a few doctors in these places bothered to listen and claimed somehow I was at fault and doing it wrong.
So I did what people do and ignored them. I did my own research. I started backing out of them slowly until there was no noticable effect. I did see a medical doctor here in OK, almost done with them. I mentioned the problem and he said if it didn't absorb right, it could be dangerous. I'd done the right thing. But I use natural products and have found ways to cut off downs and stem bad up moods. And have had no need to see either kind of doctor except for an ear infection.
I still have moods, but none are bad and if they spike, I have natural stuff to blunt it. I've found ways to pull back the fears and turn them into a series of smaller things which can be dealt with. But on the meds I couldn't do that. Now I know all the small steps which come before it becomes 'bad', and can stop them before then.
And yes, I still cycle. But not drastically and can use the spurts of energy or the chill out times. And have accepted that this IS me, and I manage may life. I keep the pressure away and though it isn't the norm, I do fine. But none of this would have happened with handfulls of pills.
And if anything makes you pass out when you take it, there is certainly a problem and when a 'doctor' dismisses it as something you're doing wrong, and doesn't even check, then this 'doctor' needs to take down his Dr on the door.
A drug which causes you to get very dizzy when you take it, zoned out where you can't think straight, and then passing out is a DANGEROUS drug for you, and the very first thing which needs to happen is getting them OFF that drug immediately and back out anything else which is associated and then reintroduce other options one by one, and stopping them if their side effects. But if the norm is a visit every three months, its not going to be like that. If a patient has a bad reaction to a drug. If this happens a week later, they find time for the patient or pull their shingle from the door.
I read an article today (not related to antidepressants) that in part talked about the pharmaceutical industry's regular practice of slightly re branding/reformulating drugs in order to re-patent them and profit off of them. This happens not only with antidepressant medication but with all medications in all fields of disease. The below excerpt is referencing all medications created for all disease.
Here is an excerpt from the article:
"According to the research house Pharmacare, 14,872 new drugs were in the pipeline in early 2017, 8% higher than the 13,718 drugs in 2016. These include launched drugs in additional development.
In turn, the 2016 figure was 11% higher than the 2015 tally. But the US Food & Drug Administration’s (FDA’s) Center for Drug Evaluation and Research approved only 46 ‘novel’ drugs in 2017, which suggests that most of these treatments are reiterations or reformulations of old drugs (see chart below). Still – and in the words of FDA chief Dr Scott Gottlieb – “today, new medical breakthroughs are profoundly altering how we view and treat disease in a way that seemed inconceivable years ago.â€
- End article excerpt
So, out of 14,872 new drugs, only 46 of them were truly "novel" (or new/completely different). This is discouraging.
It is discouraging regarding treatment/fixing of all disease but as it relates to depression it is also highly discouraging due to the fact that traditional antidepressants (SSRIs and others) while helping some, are not helping a significant portion of people. That traditional antidepressants are not significantly more effective then placebo.
Depression, like all disease, stinks for the afflicted. Significantly more investment of time and money is needed in this field to truly reach a real solution for most people. We are not there yet with traditional methods and medications. We can get there if we, step away from the "status quo" and focus the great minds and resources of humanity in accomplishing this.
Depression, like all disease, stinks for the afflicted. Significantly more investment of time and money is needed in this field to truly reach a real solution for most people. We are not there yet with traditional methods and medications. We can get there if we, step away from the "status quo" and focus the great minds and resources of humanity in accomplishing this.
Your assumption is that no one is already doing that.
Your assumption is that no one is already doing that.
You are assuming that was my assumption. Your assumption is incorrect.
My view is that while there are some trying for novel treatments, more needs to be done regarding coming up with novel options and that the typical SOP of a good portion of the field of just rehashing old med/formulation for profit, while beneficial to the shareholder and to the company, is not generally not beneficial to society.
The common strategy of rehashing SSRIs with usually relatively minor formulation changes, often for patent and profit purposes, even in the face that they are not significantly more effective placebo, in the long run, is not helping or going to help the vast majority of those suffering from depression.
You are assuming that was my assumption. Your assumption is incorrect.
My view is that while there are some trying for novel treatments, more needs to be done regarding coming up with novel options and that the typical SOP of a good portion of the field of just rehashing old med/formulation for profit, while beneficial to the shareholder and to the company, is not generally not beneficial to society.
The common strategy of rehashing SSRIs with usually relatively minor formulation changes, often for patent and profit purposes, even in the face that they are not significantly more effective placebo, in the long run, is not helping or going to help the vast majority of those suffering from depression.
Where do you suggest those "novel treatments" are to come from? You seem to think that just redirecting R&D money will make it happen.
Where do you suggest those "novel treatments" are to come from? You seem to think that just redirecting R&D money will make it happen.
I think that redirecting R&D money will bring us to the goal much faster.
I am not sure "for profit" is where we should be expecting major advancement. Possibly, but I personally dont think so. With profit as the incentive progress can be hamstrung because of the risk/reward paradigm and the sheer cost of undergoing R&D. Recoloring and repackaging lipstick so its patent-able and slightly different when putting lipstick on a pig is much cheaper. We see it in the numbers I posted a few posts back regarding the amount of medications released versus novel medications release in the article I quoted.
Perhaps more federal dollars could be given to the cause so that non profits, schools, universities and such can tackle the issues we as humanity face today (depression and mental illness being a few of them) with greater speed, risk taking and urgency.
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