Non-Hispanic whites in Miami-- are they able to integrate well within this Latin city? (Hialeah: credit, cinema)

[ChesterM]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do you mean Quebec City or Montreal? In both cases, though, you're right that Miami Hispanics know English better than French Canadians in Quebec City and Montreal. For example, there are lots of Hispanics in Miami who know little to no Spanish at all. This does not really exist in Quebec City or Montreal - there aren't really any French Canadians who know little to no French.


All of which backs up my previous point that Spanish is not really the dominant language in Miami.

Hispanics that don't know Spanish in Miami? Not really. Their Spa is might be poor but thy speak Spanish. You are probably talking about the west.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ChesterM

Hispanics that don't know Spanish in Miami? Not really. Their Spa is might be poor but thy speak Spanish. You are probably talking about the west.

No I am talking about Miami. We have people who actually live in Miami posting on here who say the same as me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ChesterM

It's a question of culture. Children out of cultured parents, no matter if immigrants, will do their best to preserve the language and culture.

I might agree with that, but there is still no guarantee.


Trust me, I know what I am talking about.


Source: the experience of my extended family.

[gixxer1000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No I am talking about Miami. We have people who actually live in Miami posting on here who say the same as me.

Because someone who lives in Miami agrees with you doesn't make it true. I live in Miami and will say that from my anecdotal evidence Spanish is the dominant language. If I had to choose between knowing Spanish and poor English and English and poor Spanish I would choose knowing Spanish.

I'd put it this way. If you only knew one language you could walk into any business and be guaranteed to be able to speak to someone in Spanish. The same can't be said for English. There are entire communities that are Spanish only. There are no communities that are English only.

But to the point earlier, my anecdotal evidence is far from fact. However when looking at statistics it appears that information from the Census implies that roughly 60% of the population speaks Spanish with half of that population speaking English poorly.

Now dominant can be viewed subjectively but clearly the number of people who speak Spanish outnumber the people who do not speak Spanish.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gixxer1000

Because someone who lives in Miami agrees with you doesn't make it true. I live in Miami and will say that from my anecdotal evidence Spanish is the dominant language. If I had to choose between knowing Spanish and poor English and English and poor Spanish I would choose knowing Spanish.

I'd put it this way. If you only knew one language you could walk into any business and be guaranteed to be able to speak to someone in Spanish. The same can't be said for English. There are entire communities that are Spanish only. There are no communities that are English only.

But to the point earlier, my anecdotal evidence is far from fact. However when looking at statistics it appears that information from the Census implies that roughly 60% of the population speaks Spanish with half of that population speaking English poorly.

Now dominant can be viewed subjectively but clearly the number of people who speak Spanish outnumber the people who do not speak Spanish.

Yes, but do they outnumber the people who speak English (either as a first second or third language)?

[gixxer1000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, but do they outnumber the people who speak English (either as a first second or third language)?

No, if you combine all the people that speak English as a first, second or third language that is the largest group.

But having the capacity to speak English means nothing if you don't actually do it. But many of the people who speak English as a second or third language don't speak it well (census info puts it at half). Furthermore when you look at statistics virtually ALL Hispanic households speak Spanish at home.

So in practice what I've found is that you've got about a 30% chance a person you walk up to speaks Spanish only or Spanish and minimal English. Then there is another 30% change they speak Spanish and English well. And then about a 25% chance they are an English only speaker.

So the issue then becomes as soon as there are 2 -3 people in the conversation in almost always switches to primarily Spanish or a combination of the two.

I'm an English only speaker (wife speaks 3 languages none of which are Spanish) and this happens even within our friends group within our own household. Unless the number of Spanish speakers is a very small minority the language always switches to Spanish.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I understand my friends are just communicating in the most effective way for them but having non Spanish speaking friends we see its not always the most inviting community. It's simple the nature of numbers. More people speak Spanish.

[Monasterio]

There's a very important fact. Prestige. Is Spanish in Miami a language with no prestige? Is there Academia, politicians and moguls that use the language? The media?

[Acajack]

Pretty much everything that's "important" in Miami is in English. The administration and teaching in public schools, the administration of justice (unless translation is needed in specific cases), local politics and governance, law enforcement, big and cross-regional business, etc.


Unless you're applying for a job in the Miami office of a Latin American bank or some Spanish language media outlet, you're not going to be applying for a white collar job in Miami with a resumé and covering letter in Spanish.


I just named examples those off the top of my head... there are lots more.


Heck, the City of Miami's own website doesn't have anywhere to close to full information available in Spanish. Only a few "essential" sections are translated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gixxer1000

No, if you combine all the people that speak English as a first, second or third language that is the largest group.

But having the capacity to speak English means nothing if you don't actually do it. But many of the people who speak English as a second or third language don't speak it well (census info puts it at half). Furthermore when you look at statistics virtually ALL Hispanic households speak Spanish at home.

So in practice what I've found is that you've got about a 30% chance a person you walk up to speaks Spanish only or Spanish and minimal English. Then there is another 30% change they speak Spanish and English well. And then about a 25% chance they are an English only speaker.

So the issue then becomes as soon as there are 2 -3 people in the conversation in almost always switches to primarily Spanish or a combination of the two.

I'm an English only speaker (wife speaks 3 languages none of which are Spanish) and this happens even within our friends group within our own household. Unless the number of Spanish speakers is a very small minority the language always switches to Spanish.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I understand my friends are just communicating in the most effective way for them but having non Spanish speaking friends we see its not always the most inviting community. It's simple the nature of numbers. More people speak Spanish.

You don't state it expressly but my guess is that you probably find this mildly irksome, which leads you to conclude kinda flippantly that Spanish is clearly the dominant language in Miami.


If true, then I think that's perfectly OK BTW, and I wouldn't judge anyone for that.


I mean, where I live we've had language tensions my entire lifetime, and even long before I was born. I won't get into any details but there are certain linguistic things that I would also find irksome here if they were to become generalized.

[ChesterM]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty much everything that's "important" in Miami is in English. The administration and teaching in public schools, the administration of justice (unless translation is needed in specific cases), local politics and governance, law enforcement, big and cross-regional business, etc.


Unless you're applying for a job in the Miami office of a Latin American bank or some Spanish language media outlet, you're not going to be applying for a white collar job in Miami with a resumé and covering letter in Spanish.


I just named examples those off the top of my head... there are lots more.


Heck, the City of Miami's own website doesn't have anywhere to close to full information available in Spanish. Only a few "essential" sections are translated.

Spanish is official in Dade County and every public document is available in Spanish. Spanish, as somebody told you before, is the lingua franca in Dade. Most of the official matters such as court, crime, goes on in Spanish.

Spanish is not the language of a downtrodden minority, as in Quebec imposed by the political will of an ethnic minority, but a language imposed by economics and finance, being Miami the financial and trade center of Latin America.

There has been potent English only mouvents that have failed and si. E then Spanish has been gaining ground.

The fact that Spanish is not official, which is not the case, is inconsequential. You should know that as French Canadia. Catalán for example was not official and forbidden in public venues during 250 years, but the language survived.

Most jobs in Dade require Spanish, because employers prefer bilingual for the same price.