Reasons why I didn't like Miami and went back to NYC (Hialeah: transfer, university)

[Sugah Ray]

Originally Posted by deboinair

The problem lies where the US pretty much gave Cubans Miami. They didn't have any requirements that made them assimilate to American culture. Some did, but for the most part the same culture is in Miami that was in Cuba. Some of the other Spanish speaking cultures that have come over have followed suit. Everybody speaks Spanish, so will we.

Why couldn't they give the Colombians Miami, if they wanted to give to a country. They built South Beach and Brickell. LOL

We would have the same language problems. Colombians are not special, they would have done the same thing. Many poor Colombians don't speak English. Well maybe something would be different, Colombians did try to make Miami another Medellin in the 80's but the US stop them. Remember the Dadeland shoooting?

Medellin

[richzimme]

Originally Posted by Sugah Ray

And I will explain the same thing to you 4 or 5 times again. It is not as easy as you think it is. It's not about learning 40 or 50 vocabulary words.

If it was that easy we wouldn't have the communication problems we have here in Miami. An adult(not a child) learning a second language usually understands written text and their English teachers first. Their teachers speak to them slooooowwlyyy and with limited vocabulary. People don't talk like that in real life, especially customers who are always in a hurry. Understanding regular speech takes a lot of time and exposure. You just don't learn to say "ham" and recognize that word next time someone uses it in a phrase. A deli worker in those neighborhoods probably spends days without hearing any English words, let alone the same words. It takes many months of constant exposure to understand eve basic words in regular speech. If you don't believe me try it.

You don't have much confidence in ordinary people's ability to recognize ordinary sounds. Unfortunately, employees at large national stores in Miami to not understand and are incapable of responding to the simplest questions even related to the departments in which they work. Doral Wallmart Bicycle dept, "can you please tell me if you sell car-mounted bicycle racks?" Took 20 minutes to find the supposed "English speaker", who also couldn't understand and showed me the wall of bicycle water bottles, locks, pumps (hoping she'd point to "rack"). Also Sears, no bedding salesperson had the faintest grasp of English. Again, the supposed translator was very nice but couldn't understand "softer". The translator understood firmer, but we couldn't get to understand "softer". Frankly there is no acceptable excuse for this even in Miami. I can get by w/my limited Spanish, but when the employee has zip/zero English, it is pretty difficult.

[Sugah Ray]

Originally Posted by richzimme

You don't have much confidence in ordinary people's ability to recognize ordinary sounds. Unfortunately, employees at large national stores in Miami to not understand and are incapable of responding to the simplest questions even related to the departments in which they work. Doral Wallmart Bicycle dept, "can you please tell me if you sell car-mounted bicycle racks?" Took 20 minutes to find the supposed "English speaker", who also couldn't understand and showed me the wall of bicycle water bottles, locks, pumps (hoping she'd point to "rack"). Also Sears, no bedding salesperson had the faintest grasp of English. Again, the supposed translator was very nice but couldn't understand "softer". The translator understood firmer, but we couldn't get to understand "softer". Frankly there is no acceptable excuse for this even in Miami. I can get by w/my limited Spanish, but when the employee has zip/zero English, it is pretty difficult.

Yes I don't have much confidence because I actually know what I am talking about. I am a Spanish speaker who learned English as a second language in Miami.

Did you learned a second language as an adult? Did you work with the public using this new language? It takes a long time for the brain to get used to a new language. It is a very automatic process that requires a lot of exposure to that new language. Many hispanics in Miami have no exposure to English. Your Spanish seems as limited as their English since you both couldn't communicate.

[valicky]

Sugah Ray, you've done an excellent job!

The problem lies within management and upper levels. If a completely non-English speaker were going to be hired, they should be given a list of words that need to be learned. Since cashiers only need to swipe an item over the scanner and occasionally give change, they have plenty of time to learn something new. I remember having to go through two weeks of training for my cashier job back in the day because we had to know so many things. Now we think we can't ask anything of minimum wage employees because "oh, that's too hard!" It's not. Really it isn't. These two instances reported on this thread are not isolated. I know many non-Spanish speakers who go through this daily, multiple times a day, day in and day out. It's not right, and it's not good for Miami to slip down this slippery slope. We should expect more of our Spanish speaking citizens. We should believe in them that they can learn enough English to speak with non-Spanish speakers. Thinking - "oh it's too hard, they'll never be able to do it" just perpetuates the ignorance. Expect more and you'll receive more. Expect less and you'll surely get it. My husband used to work in the food industry. As a waiter he'd have to learn the menu and how items were prepared so he could answer patrons questions. The management didn't say "oh, the waiters can't learn this stuff, just forget it." It was expected and the wait staff learned. Remember, almost all non-Spanish speakers don't expect fluency. Just the basic words that apply to the department you work in. This would go a long way in lifting this city out of the third world image many, many non Miamians and former Miamians have of it.

[flyers29]

Originally Posted by valicky

Sugah Ray, you've done an excellent job!

The problem lies within management and upper levels. If a completely non-English speaker were going to be hired, they should be given a list of words that need to be learned. Since cashiers only need to swipe an item over the scanner and occasionally give change, they have plenty of time to learn something new. I remember having to go through two weeks of training for my cashier job back in the day because we had to know so many things. Now we think we can't ask anything of minimum wage employees because "oh, that's too hard!" It's not. Really it isn't. These two instances reported on this thread are not isolated. I know many non-Spanish speakers who go through this daily, multiple times a day, day in and day out. It's not right, and it's not good for Miami to slip down this slippery slope. We should expect more of our Spanish speaking citizens. We should believe in them that they can learn enough English to speak with non-Spanish speakers. Thinking - "oh it's too hard, they'll never be able to do it" just perpetuates the ignorance. Expect more and you'll receive more. Expect less and you'll surely get it. My husband used to work in the food industry. As a waiter he'd have to learn the menu and how items were prepared so he could answer patrons questions. The management didn't say "oh, the waiters can't learn this stuff, just forget it." It was expected and the wait staff learned. Remember, almost all non-Spanish speakers don't expect fluency. Just the basic words that apply to the department you work in. This would go a long way in lifting this city out of the third world image many, many non Miamians and former Miamians have of it.

Agree 100%

[Sugah Ray]

Originally Posted by valicky

Sugah Ray, you've done an excellent job!

The problem lies within management and upper levels. If a completely non-English speaker were going to be hired, they should be given a list of words that need to be learned. Since cashiers only need to swipe an item over the scanner and occasionally give change, they have plenty of time to learn something new. I remember having to go through two weeks of training for my cashier job back in the day because we had to know so many things. Now we think we can't ask anything of minimum wage employees because "oh, that's too hard!" It's not. Really it isn't. These two instances reported on this thread are not isolated. I know many non-Spanish speakers who go through this daily, multiple times a day, day in and day out. It's not right, and it's not good for Miami to slip down this slippery slope. We should expect more of our Spanish speaking citizens. We should believe in them that they can learn enough English to speak with non-Spanish speakers. Thinking - "oh it's too hard, they'll never be able to do it" just perpetuates the ignorance. Expect more and you'll receive more. Expect less and you'll surely get it. My husband used to work in the food industry. As a waiter he'd have to learn the menu and how items were prepared so he could answer patrons questions. The management didn't say "oh, the waiters can't learn this stuff, just forget it." It was expected and the wait staff learned. Remember, almost all non-Spanish speakers don't expect fluency. Just the basic words that apply to the department you work in. This would go a long way in lifting this city out of the third world image many, many non Miamians and former Miamians have of it.

Publix can't afford that kind of training you are suggesting. Supermarkets have low margins. It wouldn't work anyway since no one learns so many words in a foreign language in just a few days. The average supermarket carries over 40,000 products.

The only other realistic solution is for Publix and similar chains to close their stores in high hispanic areas since they won't find many people who speak English. By closing those stores these chains will avoid hiring non English speakers from those neighborhoods with high hispanic population. Unfortunately those who don't speak Spanish will also have to drive to Pinecrest to shop at Publix because those Spanish speaking stores close to home closed. It's a lose-lose scenario.

[shamrockfisher]

I believe Sugah Ray has illuminated the biggest problem. Statistically non-hispanics are now a small minority in Miami. The fact is, most of the non-english speakers truly do not have enough exposure or opportunity to practice english.

If given a list of words or phrases to memorize in English that are germane to their job activities, these hispanic employees would simply be practicing for something they would not use enough to warrant their efforts.

Miami is already past the tipping point, this is certain. For the 10 to 15 percent of non-hispanics remaining in Miami, this issue will only continue. Everywhere you go and meet people or pick up a local magazine or newspaper and read a story, the overwhelming majority of people involved have spanish surnames. This was not as prevalent 10 years ago as there was still more of a mix and certainly not 20 or 30 years ago.

It is amazing how rapidly a place can be transformed by replacing residents with newcomers. The melting pot in Miami ended some time ago, at least with the category that included non-hispanic whites. That percentage did not remain and grow old. That percentage flat out got up and left when they could.

For instance, The Palace assisted care facility in Kendall. 1990, my grandmother was there when she needed 24/7 care. Mix of all people, lots of English.

2006, my other Grandmother was there to rehab a hip. She was isolated as all the old people were latin. All we heard was spanish everytime we visited. She was bored out of her mind when family was not there. Lived in Miami 80 years and when she was hurt and could have enjoyed the company of other seniors around her as she completed rehab she had no one to converse with but just some of the staff. Some staff members couldn't speak with her at all and she had to wait sometimes hours to get something once staff changed or she called a family member. Mind you, this is not a cheap facility.

Job transfer, university enrollment, insurance money from natural disaster, retirement. You name it, people just left when they could but the population of Miami did not shrink, it just replaced the percentage that left with newcomers who were primarily latin american.

It is what it is but it's not typical of most American cities. This preponderance of non-english speakers that is not focused in only certain neighborhoods but across the entire metro Miami-Dade area sets it apart and places it in the category with the other transitional border towns/cities in this country and world.

Why would you put yourself through that environment if you are non-hispanic? Even if you snapped your fingers and learned the language immediately, there are many other dividing lines. Interests, viewpoints, food and cultural issues are completely slanted away from the typical American norm due to these outside influences and residents who are fundamentally foreigners residing in a foreign land.

Great for them to live their American dream but why would you want your American experience and dream to be taken back to step 1? For all of the rewards you may have from multiculturalism you can find that in other large American cities without all of the negatives found in a city with the majority of people making their first steps into a new society and whose survival is not dependent upon assimilating and learning the language or cultural norms of this country.

[Travelassie]

Originally Posted by Sugah Ray

And I will explain the same thing to you 4 or 5 times again. It is not as easy as you think it is. It's not about learning 40 or 50 vocabulary words.

If it was that easy we wouldn't have the communication problems we have here in Miami. An adult(not a child) learning a second language usually understands written text and their English teachers first. Their teachers speak to them slooooowwlyyy and with limited vocabulary. People don't talk like that in real life, especially customers who are always in a hurry. Understanding regular speech takes a lot of time and exposure. You just don't learn to say "ham" and recognize that word next time someone uses it in a phrase. A deli worker in those neighborhoods probably spends days without hearinit wg any English words, let alone the same words. It takes many months of constant exposure to understand eve basic words in regular speech. If you don't believe me try it.

Most of the long time residents in Miami Dade County who speak only Spanish, have no desire to learn English because they are under no pressure to do so. They know they can live their entire lives there without having to speak English, possibly, depending on what they do or where they go, even without encountering anyone else who doesn't speak Spanish, so they take the easy way out and never bother to learn English. And many of them use that same excuse, it's "too hard".


If there were any incentive for them to do so, let's say it was mandatory to learn English in order to get a job, or they had to function in a setting where English was the primary language spoken, I bet it wouldn't be "so hard" for them to learn it.....

As my predecessors had to do when they first came to this country......

[Travelassie]

Originally Posted by Sugah Ray

Yes I don't have much confidence because I actually know what I am talking about. I am a Spanish speaker who learned English as a second language in Miami.

Did you learned a second language as an adult? Did you work with the public using this new language? It takes a long time for the brain to get used to a new language. It is a very automatic process that requires a lot of exposure to that new language. Many hispanics in Miami have no exposure to English. Your Spanish seems as limited as their English since you both couldn't communicate.

You're using this as an excuse? If these Hispanics wanted to learn English, there are many opportunities in Miami for that exposure to the language, and a little effort on their part would achieve great results.

It would get them a lot further than the more or less apologetic "No 'peeky Englee" response they make to others who speak English when addressing them.

[Winchupuata]

I speak Spanish but being a white European most people address me in English. Even old ladies that obviously speak very little English try to speak English to me. Very rarely I encountered a situation where the other person absolutely refuses to speak English, and not out of malice but because they simply don't know, and honestly it never prevented me from doing anything here. I've even experimented pretending I didn't speak Spanish and never encountered any hostility towards me.

I really don't get why some people make such a big deal out of the language thing in Miami. Out of all the things you can hate Miami for, and there are plenty for sure, I hate many things about it myself, this is such a minor issue. I for one like that I can go from English to Spanish several times in the same day if I want to, it helps create an international vibe and adds to the uniqueness on the city, but then again, I'm not American so I can't put myself in their shoes.