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I see you have no answer to the question of "what will we do with 7+ billion homeless and starving people?" or the robots scenario. Instead, you offer an "i know you are, but what am i!" type comeback.
Face it, capitalist or not, universal income will NEED to become a thing...... or else mass unrest or mass death will ensue. It's just a fact jack! You can't really have an economy and mass robots at the same time, as robots do not spend money or pay taxes. Ironically it may be government itself that blocks adoption of mass robot tech, sooner or later they will realize that robots do not pay taxes or vote..... thus they are also bad for the big govt itself. Robots can't be bribed with "welfare", and thus the politicians will have a dilemma and harder time getting votes.
Who will buy the products from these large corporations if 99% of the population is unemployed and homeless? Exactly. We need to think ahead a little and not this short-sighted focus on huge salaries and multiple mansions for a handful of CEO's and executives, we need to look at the bigger picture and plan accordingly.
I'm well aware of the need for an eventual transition to a post-scarcity society in the face of automation, but we're a long way away from that yet. My quip about you being off your meds has far more to do with your emphatic "OMG TEH ROBOTZ IS GOING TO KILL US ALL SKYNET 1% WTF!!!" posting style.
Yes, automation is here and is increasing in pace. No, it's not going to remove all workers in any of our lifetimes (though maybe our children's). Yes, we need to plan for it. No, it's not going to be catastrophic, because one of the hallmarks of a post-scarcity society is that the cost of resources drops to virtually zero, so even the poorest will be able to be taken care of. No, there won't be "7+ billion homeless people", unless you think the robots are going to personally come to your house and evict you. No, we can't have universal income now. The numbers just aren't there. Not even close. The per capita GDP in the US is about $56k. So that's the absolute most we could pay everyone if we took all income and redistributed it equally. Even to get to $30k, you would need an effective tax rate of 70%-ish. I think higher taxes are a good idea, but that's stupidly high.
So mainly the reason I dismissed the last part of your post is because you shifted from fairly typical low-information-voter nonsense to full-on tin-foil hat schizophrenic talking to himself territory.
And for the record, I actually do have quite a bit of experience with Scandinavian socialism. I have quite a few relatives in Finland, and know many many people from the region. My question to you is why aren't you interested? By every objective measure, Scandinavians on average have a better quality of life, higher GDP per capita, lower incidence of malnutrition, better healthcare outcomes, less poverty, less crime, and report being significantly happier than Americans. What about that sounds unappealing to you?
Because I spend a ton of time there to know all these fluff stats are just that, fluff. We have Danish visitors almost monthly, and they spend their entire vacation at the mall - as they would say "we can't afford jeans in Denmark" ... it's nowhere near the paradise you describe, and again, nowhere near the paradise being presented by the left in this country. There is a very obvious sense of "something missing" when you are there. They can't afford nice cars, they can't afford to go out to eat, they can't afford hardly anything. And when all the Danes come here to work on assignment (my wife works for a Danish company), I'd say 8 out of 10 don't want to go back. They buy dream cars, live in beautiful apartments, go out all the time, etc. They love it here. And they are paid fairly average salaries, too. They just get so much more. And funny enough, they always say that the American health system is very misrepresented overseas. And that they have no issues with it when they are here. You should also recognize that these systems overseas have loads of problems, also. They are political. For instance, the large hospital by my family in Denmark is closing and moving towards the east where the politicians get more votes. So if you are near the coast, you have a couple hours drive just to get to the hospital now. You hear complaints ALL the time, and shockingly, they seem to have many of the same complaints we do here.
I think if you are in the bottom 30% of the population, you might prefer a Scandinavian style system - because you are failing at life and they'll take care of you. But beyond that, they rape the rest of the population to pay for this nonsense. You may also take note that these countries are moving to the right, fast. Denmark just elected a far-right government last year, Sweden is going that way, etc. It's a major issue right now. Why? Because the far left socialism is starting to collapse, as you would expect.
Because I spend a ton of time there to know all these fluff stats are just that, fluff. We have Danish visitors almost monthly, and they spend their entire vacation at the mall - as they would say "we can't afford jeans in Denmark" ... it's nowhere near the paradise you describe, and again, nowhere near the paradise being presented by the left in this country. There is a very obvious sense of "something missing" when you are there. They can't afford nice cars, they can't afford to go out to eat, they can't afford hardly anything. And when all the Danes come here to work on assignment (my wife works for a Danish company), I'd say 8 out of 10 don't want to go back. They buy dream cars, live in beautiful apartments, go out all the time, etc. They love it here. And they are paid fairly average salaries, too. They just get so much more. And funny enough, they always say that the American health system is very misrepresented overseas. And that they have no issues with it when they are here. You should also recognize that these systems overseas have loads of problems, also. They are political. For instance, the large hospital by my family in Denmark is closing and moving towards the east where the politicians get more votes. So if you are near the coast, you have a couple hours drive just to get to the hospital now. You hear complaints ALL the time, and shockingly, they seem to have many of the same complaints we do here.
I think if you are in the bottom 30% of the population, you might prefer a Scandinavian style system - because you are failing at life and they'll take care of you. But beyond that, they rape the rest of the population to pay for this nonsense. You may also take note that these countries are moving to the right, fast. Denmark just elected a far-right government last year, Sweden is going that way, etc. It's a major issue right now. Why? Because the far left socialism is starting to collapse, as you would expect.
I'm not saying that European systems don't have their share of problems, Denmark especially. That would be an incredibly stupid thing to assume, since there is obviously no such thing as a perfect system. However, I am saying that they do some things better than we do. And hell, we don't even have to look across the ocean to find a better way of doing things - Canada has managed to solve at least the healthcare side of things pretty well, to the point where even the far right doesn't talk about removing their single-payer government-run healthcare. Germany also has figured it out quite well, and gets much more done for much less, without even having to go full-socialism.
But surely even you can see that the US spending twice as much as any other nation on healthcare as a percent of GDP and getting results that are in no way better, and in many ways worse, is absolutely insane. In 2014, we spent 17.3% of GDP on healthcare. By comparison, Canada (with an entirely socialized system) spent about 10. The UK spent about 10. Germany spent about 10. The OECD average is about 8.3%. And we aren't any healthier. Infant mortality rates are no better than anywhere else. In-hospital infection rates are about like anywhere. Wait times are no shorter. There is literally not a single health outcome where the US is even 50% better than any other OECD country, despite spending almost 100% more per capita. That's ludicrous.
As far as the Nordic countries turning progressively towards the far-right, that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration. The far-right party that just triumphed in Denmark would, on economic issues, be to the left of Democrats in the US. Their main concern is nationalism and ethnic cleansing, due largely to the influx of Syrian immigrants. They aren't proposing massive cuts to social welfare programs (except to immigrants), nor are they proposing massive drops in tax rates.
So while you talk about "fluff" metrics, ones that you think are adequately refuted by a couple of personal anecdotes, remember that the US has almost no immigration from Scandinavian countries. The out-migration rates for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are essentially zero. I work with a lot of Swedish and Finnish technology companies doing consulting, and I have in my entire life only met a tiny handful of people from those nations that left for reasons other than their company asking them to relocate. Of the ones I have met, most are young and are really just going abroad for a time with plans to return home eventually. If it really is such a socialist nightmare hell, you would think that people would be leaving the country left and right, right?
And keep in mind that them talking about how cheap and affordable things are here is not the same as them being unsatisfied at home. When I go to visit relatives in Russia, I live like a king on less than half my regular weekly budget. I'm talking renting lofts in the trendiest neighborhoods, S-class car rentals for a month, going to the most expensive restaurants, buying tons of ****, etc. It's like Christmas, and I enjoy it as a bit of a break from having to live within my means. That doesn't mean I would ever want to move to Russia and live there permanently. Temporary exuberance at having your money go further is not the same thing as a legitimate preference for system of government. And "data" is not the plural of "anecdote".
I'm not saying that European systems don't have their share of problems, Denmark especially. That would be an incredibly stupid thing to assume, since there is obviously no such thing as a perfect system. However, I am saying that they do some things better than we do. And hell, we don't even have to look across the ocean to find a better way of doing things - Canada has managed to solve at least the healthcare side of things pretty well, to the point where even the far right doesn't talk about removing their single-payer government-run healthcare. Germany also has figured it out quite well, and gets much more done for much less, without even having to go full-socialism.
But surely even you can see that the US spending twice as much as any other nation on healthcare as a percent of GDP and getting results that are in no way better, and in many ways worse, is absolutely insane. In 2014, we spent 17.3% of GDP on healthcare. By comparison, Canada (with an entirely socialized system) spent about 10. The UK spent about 10. Germany spent about 10. The OECD average is about 8.3%. And we aren't any healthier. Infant mortality rates are no better than anywhere else. In-hospital infection rates are about like anywhere. Wait times are no shorter. There is literally not a single health outcome where the US is even 50% better than any other OECD country, despite spending almost 100% more per capita. That's ludicrous.
As far as the Nordic countries turning progressively towards the far-right, that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration. The far-right party that just triumphed in Denmark would, on economic issues, be to the left of Democrats in the US. Their main concern is nationalism and ethnic cleansing, due largely to the influx of Syrian immigrants. They aren't proposing massive cuts to social welfare programs (except to immigrants), nor are they proposing massive drops in tax rates.
So while you talk about "fluff" metrics, ones that you think are adequately refuted by a couple of personal anecdotes, remember that the US has almost no immigration from Scandinavian countries. The out-migration rates for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are essentially zero. I work with a lot of Swedish and Finnish technology companies doing consulting, and I have in my entire life only met a tiny handful of people from those nations that left for reasons other than their company asking them to relocate. Of the ones I have met, most are young and are really just going abroad for a time with plans to return home eventually. If it really is such a socialist nightmare hell, you would think that people would be leaving the country left and right, right?
And keep in mind that them talking about how cheap and affordable things are here is not the same as them being unsatisfied at home. When I go to visit relatives in Russia, I live like a king on less than half my regular weekly budget. I'm talking renting lofts in the trendiest neighborhoods, S-class car rentals for a month, going to the most expensive restaurants, buying tons of ****, etc. It's like Christmas, and I enjoy it as a bit of a break from having to live within my means. That doesn't mean I would ever want to move to Russia and live there permanently. Temporary exuberance at having your money go further is not the same thing as a legitimate preference for system of government. And "data" is not the plural of "anecdote".
I didn't know a US dollar could go so far in modern Russia... But then again, they are living under sanctions now and the ruble is 1/3 of what it used to be a couple of years ago.
I'm not saying that European systems don't have their share of problems, Denmark especially. That would be an incredibly stupid thing to assume, since there is obviously no such thing as a perfect system. However, I am saying that they do some things better than we do. And hell, we don't even have to look across the ocean to find a better way of doing things - Canada has managed to solve at least the healthcare side of things pretty well, to the point where even the far right doesn't talk about removing their single-payer government-run healthcare. Germany also has figured it out quite well, and gets much more done for much less, without even having to go full-socialism.
But surely even you can see that the US spending twice as much as any other nation on healthcare as a percent of GDP and getting results that are in no way better, and in many ways worse, is absolutely insane. In 2014, we spent 17.3% of GDP on healthcare. By comparison, Canada (with an entirely socialized system) spent about 10. The UK spent about 10. Germany spent about 10. The OECD average is about 8.3%. And we aren't any healthier. Infant mortality rates are no better than anywhere else. In-hospital infection rates are about like anywhere. Wait times are no shorter. There is literally not a single health outcome where the US is even 50% better than any other OECD country, despite spending almost 100% more per capita. That's ludicrous.
As far as the Nordic countries turning progressively towards the far-right, that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration. The far-right party that just triumphed in Denmark would, on economic issues, be to the left of Democrats in the US. Their main concern is nationalism and ethnic cleansing, due largely to the influx of Syrian immigrants. They aren't proposing massive cuts to social welfare programs (except to immigrants), nor are they proposing massive drops in tax rates.
...And "data" is not the plural of "anecdote".
Interesting points from both Lusiphur (I see what you did there) and BNBR.
In the US we vastly overpay for HC. That is a fact. This leads to several things - The HC industry makes huge profits and the US HC quality is great, if you have great insurance and/or are wealthy. Try getting transplant surgery over 60 or complex procedures done for any chronic condition in Europe or Canada - won't happen. Instead you get state mandates - again unless you go abroad and pay yourself (like many do). Is this better ? I would probably say yes but it my answer is not unequivocal. That is why we have a such a battle over such things here.
I love Europe and appreciate that each country has a preferred way of governing but it is just US ignorance to compare Democrats (even Bernie) with European style socialism. Most in the US are still so fervent about free markets that we mischaracterize true socialism and communism. There is no chance the US will turn into Europe in my lifetime or even my Children's lifetime but yet we get pundits yelling about how we are moving too far left. It would be laughable if it weren't so many people who think this way. Look at the range of topics covered in this thread over a simple proposal to raise the minimum wage (still without providing healthcare).
I didn't know a US dollar could go so far in modern Russia... But then again, they are living under sanctions now and the ruble is 1/3 of what it used to be a couple of years ago.
It varies, but at even 60 rub to a dollar, it stretches quite a bit. In terms of actual spending power, you're looking at anywhere from 4 to 10x purchasing power compared to the US. It's enough to move you at least a whole economic class up (middle to upper middle, upper middle to upper, etc.). The last time I was there was February of last year and a quarter-pounder meal at McD's cost me about $1.25 US vs. $7 or so US here.
It varies, but at even 60 rub to a dollar, it stretches quite a bit. In terms of actual spending power, you're looking at anywhere from 4 to 10x purchasing power compared to the US. It's enough to move you at least a whole economic class up (middle to upper middle, upper middle to upper, etc.). The last time I was there was February of last year and a quarter-pounder meal at McD's cost me about $1.25 US vs. $7 or so US here.
I am just comparing Nobu Moscow vs Nobu NYC, and it looks like the Moscow prices are half of those in NYC, but only if you take into account the current 60 rubles to 1 dollar exchange rates. When the dollar used to be 30 rubles a couple of years ago, the cost of nice dining seems to have been equal.
Interesting points from both Lusiphur (I see what you did there) and BNBR.
In the US we vastly overpay for HC. That is a fact. This leads to several things - The HC industry makes huge profits and the US HC quality is great, if you have great insurance and/or are wealthy. Try getting transplant surgery over 60 or complex procedures done for any chronic condition in Europe or Canada - won't happen. Instead you get state mandates - again unless you go abroad and pay yourself (like many do). Is this better ? I would probably say yes but it my answer is not unequivocal. That is why we have a such a battle over such things here.
I love Europe and appreciate that each country has a preferred way of governing but it is just US ignorance to compare Democrats (even Bernie) with European style socialism. Most in the US are still so fervent about free markets that we mischaracterize true socialism and communism. There is no chance the US will turn into Europe in my lifetime or even my Children's lifetime but yet we get pundits yelling about how we are moving too far left. It would be laughable if it weren't so many people who think this way. Look at the range of topics covered in this thread over a simple proposal to raise the minimum wage (still without providing healthcare).
This is a good point. We pay a lot for healthcare, and other countries ride on our advances. They aren't paying for the immense amount of research and development that the US does. We lead the world, by miles, in healthcare advancement.
I have a little experience with Denmark and their health system. When my wife was pregnant here in the US, she still had a Danish insurance through her employer. They didn't want to pay for the extra sonograms and doctors visits. Of course, THEY call them extra, but they are actually just normal visits for us here in the US. They had to pay for it anyways, but they couldn't believe how much extra care we get.
Fast forward 2 years, and my son had an extremely traumatic febrile seizure. We thought he passed. Ambulance showed up lightning fast, got him to the hospital, he survived. Since the intensity of the seizure was more than typical, the doctor wanted to do a few extra tests... MRI, etc. To make sure it wasn't something more severe. We get a call from the Danish insurance and the Danish doctor who confirms everything wasn't happy, saying they wouldn't do these tests until at least 3 of the seizures. They still had to pay for it, but made it clear they wouldn't have if we were in Denmark. Welcome to Denmark! There is ZERO doubt that our healthcare is better if you have insurance, which most of us do. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
It doesn't mean everything is perfect. But all the metrics and data in the world doesn't tell the full story. Great, it's cheaper, more efficient, whatever... but they ignore the actual experience you have with their systems and being stuck in bureaucracies.
I'm not saying that European systems don't have their share of problems, Denmark especially. That would be an incredibly stupid thing to assume, since there is obviously no such thing as a perfect system. However, I am saying that they do some things better than we do. And hell, we don't even have to look across the ocean to find a better way of doing things - Canada has managed to solve at least the healthcare side of things pretty well, to the point where even the far right doesn't talk about removing their single-payer government-run healthcare. Germany also has figured it out quite well, and gets much more done for much less, without even having to go full-socialism.
But surely even you can see that the US spending twice as much as any other nation on healthcare as a percent of GDP and getting results that are in no way better, and in many ways worse, is absolutely insane. In 2014, we spent 17.3% of GDP on healthcare. By comparison, Canada (with an entirely socialized system) spent about 10. The UK spent about 10. Germany spent about 10. The OECD average is about 8.3%. And we aren't any healthier. Infant mortality rates are no better than anywhere else. In-hospital infection rates are about like anywhere. Wait times are no shorter. There is literally not a single health outcome where the US is even 50% better than any other OECD country, despite spending almost 100% more per capita. That's ludicrous.
As far as the Nordic countries turning progressively towards the far-right, that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration. The far-right party that just triumphed in Denmark would, on economic issues, be to the left of Democrats in the US. Their main concern is nationalism and ethnic cleansing, due largely to the influx of Syrian immigrants. They aren't proposing massive cuts to social welfare programs (except to immigrants), nor are they proposing massive drops in tax rates.
So while you talk about "fluff" metrics, ones that you think are adequately refuted by a couple of personal anecdotes, remember that the US has almost no immigration from Scandinavian countries. The out-migration rates for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are essentially zero. I work with a lot of Swedish and Finnish technology companies doing consulting, and I have in my entire life only met a tiny handful of people from those nations that left for reasons other than their company asking them to relocate. Of the ones I have met, most are young and are really just going abroad for a time with plans to return home eventually. If it really is such a socialist nightmare hell, you would think that people would be leaving the country left and right, right?
And keep in mind that them talking about how cheap and affordable things are here is not the same as them being unsatisfied at home. When I go to visit relatives in Russia, I live like a king on less than half my regular weekly budget. I'm talking renting lofts in the trendiest neighborhoods, S-class car rentals for a month, going to the most expensive restaurants, buying tons of ****, etc. It's like Christmas, and I enjoy it as a bit of a break from having to live within my means. That doesn't mean I would ever want to move to Russia and live there permanently. Temporary exuberance at having your money go further is not the same thing as a legitimate preference for system of government. And "data" is not the plural of "anecdote".
I don't care about the data. So if that's all that matters to you, then we will just have to agree to disagree. Data can be used to say anything you want. There are so many issues in Denmark and with nordic countries that can't be quantified with simple data, and they are all a result of their socialism. You can't afford a decent car in Denmark. You can't afford to go out to eat. You drive to Germany just to buy Danish beer because you can't afford it in Denmark. Immigration issues. A welfare system that is loaded with issues and moving in a very dangerous direction... more and more not working. Massive social issues due to so many thinking they are getting ripped off on their taxes and immigrants and others not working and getting their money.
The thing is, these systems only "work" (and I use that term loosely) - because of the population. Because they have very little immigration or diversity. People act alike, think alike, etc. And as they move towards more diversity and immigration, the systems are collapsing. To think these concepts would even remotely work in the US is absurd. Most European countries are collapsing right now, it's utter chaos. Britain possibly leaving the EU, Greece, unemployment, terrorism, it's an outright mess. The US is a FAR better place to be right now, way more stable... yet we have politicians and 18 - 24 year old entitled children screaming about moving in that direction... it's insanity.
I am just comparing Nobu Moscow vs Nobu NYC, and it looks like the Moscow prices are half of those in NYC, but only if you take into account the current 60 rubles to 1 dollar exchange rates. When the dollar used to be 30 rubles a couple of years ago, the cost of nice dining seems to have been equal.
Keep in mind Nobu NYC has raised prices over the years. Also, Nobu caters more to the visiting/traveling crowd, so their prices are more on par across borders. They assume that a large portion of their customers are either not native Russians but tourists, or that they are Russians who spend a lot of time abroad. White Rabbit, on the other hand, is largely considered to be the finest restaurant in Russia (or was last time I was there). The most expensive item on their menu is $46, with most entrees coming in at about $15-16. You can very easily put together a top notch tasting menu for under $100. Compare that to a place like The French Laundry, or Blue Hill at Stone Barns, or Keen's where the cheapest entrees clock in at $30+, and most tend to be around $50-ish. And when you get down to the everyday local options - the food that most people eat regularly - the price difference is even more glaring.
But this has been a bit of a distraction from the main point that being able to spend like a sailor on shore leave and get way more for your money doesn't mean you prefer a specific system of government to any other.
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