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View Poll Results: Can density save Miami?
YES 7 77.78%
NO 2 22.22%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-17-2022, 08:04 PM
 
836 posts, read 850,658 times
Reputation: 740

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I've posted on another website which proclaimed that Atlanta surpassed Miami in not just the city population but the MSA and the CSA. While it's nice that Atlanta is growing, Atlanta sprawls up to 42 different counties including one in AL while Miami because of it's geography is forced to utilize up to five counties in it's CSA. Here's the rest of the post I made and here's the link (https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/n...mis-population):




I'm thinking what the above poster is trying to say is that since the Atlanta and Miami MSAs and CSAs are both similar in population, that even though Miami's CSA takes much less land due to it being wedged between the Atlantic Ocean and the Everglades, that it's much more urban than what Atlanta can offer.

There are nine dense cities within Miami-Dade County alone plus at least one other community in Palm Beach County which contains 10K ppsm. Here are the densest incorporated cities in Miami-Dade County and Palm Beach County:

North Bay Village: 22,051.35/sq mi
Sunny Isles Beach: 22,098.91/sq mi
Aventura: 15,197.13/sq mi
Bay Harbor Islands: 14,954.55/sq mi
South Palm Beach: 13,747.66/sq mi
Miami: 12,284.47/sq mi (would've been 13,888.89/sq. mi. if US Census counted Miami with 500K people as there was a drastic undercount in population as Miami has 467K people back in 2019, meaning that it's density at the time was 12,972.22/sq. mi.)
Key Biscayne: 11,875.70/sq mi
Miami Beach: 10,774.73/sq mi
Hialeah: 10,338.21/sq mi
Surfside: 10,213.64/sq mi
West Miami: 10,201.69/sq mi

Here are also some unincorporated communities in Miami-Dade County which have a density of at least 10K people per sq. mi:

Fountainebleu: 15,130.15/sq mi
Kendall West: 13,276.16/sq mi
Country Club: 11,959.55/sq mi

Here's also a bunch of cities and communities in Broward County and Miami-Dade County that are not yet at the 10K ppsm density however have at least 7,500 ppsm due to the current growth in South Florida plus the development trends, and will possibly place them at 10K ppsm by 2030:

Ives Estates: 9,813.58/sq mi
Hallandale Beach: 9,785.61/sq mi
Lauderdale Lakes: 9,767.45/sq mi
North Lauderdale: 9,691.48/sq mi
Pinewood: 9,100/sq mi
North Miami Beach: 9,016.52/sq mi
Naranja: 9,012.01/sq mi
Sweetwater: 8,833.49/sq mi
Briny Breezes: 8,807.02/sq mi
Lauderhill: 8,746.12/sq mi
Richmond West: 8,601.15/sq mi
Bal Harbour: 8,075.72/sq mi
Leisure City: 8,069.90/sq mi
Virginia Gardens: 8,040.82/sq mi
Highland Beach: 7,998.14/sq mi
Tamiami: 7,692.92/sq mi
The Hammocks: 7,540.57/sq mi

The densest city in GA as of 2020 is the city of Clarkston, with a density of 7,997.83/sq mi. Atlanta, the largest city in GA has a density of 3,685.45/sq mi. The county seat of Dekalb County, GA is 5,422.67/sq mi . East Point's density is 2,611.34/sq mi while College Park's density is 1,248.10/sq mi.

This isn't meant to disparage Atlanta in any way, but the point that I'm trying to make is that while Atlanta is still a larger city in terms of population, land area, and even the vast metro area (Atlanta MSA is 8,376 sq mi and the Atlanta CSA is 10,494.03 sq mi while Miami's MSA is 6,137 sq mi). Atlanta has 29 counties in it's MSA plus up to 42 counties in the CSA including one county in Alabama (Chambers County, AL) and two more abutting SC (Habersham & Stephens Counties, GA).

It looks like by 2030 that the Atlanta CSA will get at least one county in SC and possibly extend all the way to the GA-TN border, however the one factor as to why Atlanta CSA has extended up to 42 counties is because of a lack of planning amongst GA state officials, a lack of a commuter or high-speed rail system in GA, one of the worst traffic in the nation (https://mentalitch.com/atlantas-traf...nations-worst/) and just outright segregation which has spread out communities.

The only benefits that Atlanta has over Miami is cheap real estate, a bigger local economy than Miami (https://fortune.com/longform/fortune...iness-revenue/), a dominant music scene today, and arguably a more cohesive college culture. What Miami has over Atlanta is better weather, better mass transit (local and regional), more dense neighborhoods, more skyscrapers, a better arts and galleries scene, better nightlife, more diversity, better architecture, the second largest medical campus behind Houston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_District_(Miami)) and a burgeoning finance, tech, and crypto sector. Don't forget the beach!

I also believe that cities will be judged not on how many people can it cram within it's borders nor how much land a city can annex (Phoenix, San Antonio, Columbus, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, etc.), but how it's able to provide dense neighborhoods as well as providing business, transportation, shopping, and other vital services like tourism, conventions, and public services. A city like Denver can easily have 7,107 ppsm just by either chopping off DEN or making DEN into a special administrative district independent of the city of Denver. Another city that could shave off it's area is New Orleans. Why does an urban city have a wildlife refuge when it can concentrate on the urban areas? If you took out the swampland plus the wildlife refuge, you'd have an even denser city than what's posted.

Without a major mass transit system other than MARTA, plus with the recent droughts that GA has suffered, I don't believe than Atlanta can even sustain positive and sustainable growth in the future because of the reason I've stated while it looks like the Miami CSA will continue to be the foremost CSA in the southeastern region in the foreseeable future and if the Brightline HSR extends to SW FL in Lee and Collier Counties, and commuting patterns are constant between the two areas, then SW FL and South FL would combine to create a bigger CSA with up to 8 million people, surpassing Philadelphia, Houston, and Atlanta, and placing it possibly at #7 or #8 just about on par with Dallas and Boston CSA.

Here's the link to population density of US cities and towns right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
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Old 08-17-2022, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Jupiter, FL
2,006 posts, read 3,317,925 times
Reputation: 2306
Most of Dade needs to become less dense.


Downtown + Brickell + surroundings could handle a lot more density if they become more urbanized.
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Old 08-18-2022, 02:23 AM
 
836 posts, read 850,658 times
Reputation: 740
Do you mean that Miami and Miami-Dade County needs less people or less people per square mile?
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Old 08-18-2022, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Jupiter, FL
2,006 posts, read 3,317,925 times
Reputation: 2306
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Do you mean that Miami and Miami-Dade County needs less people or less people per square mile?
This is a confusing question.

For Dade, I'm saying both. I'm certainly not advocating an expansion into the Everglades.

For Miami, I'm saying neither.
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Old 08-27-2022, 09:30 PM
 
836 posts, read 850,658 times
Reputation: 740
I'm also going to add some info on some of Tampa Bay's densest communities. Since Tampa Bay's communities aren't as dense as Miami's communities, I'm going to make the threshold to at least 5,000 ppsm, as opposed to the 7,500 - 10,000 ppsm I placed in South FL.

COLOR CODE:

Hillsborough - ORANGE
Pinellas - YELLOW
South Pasadena - 8,775.41/sq mi
University - 8,039.97/sq mi
Kenneth City - 7,068.63/sq mi
Redington Shores - 6,593.94/sq mi
Egypt Lake - Leto - 6,202.44/sq mi
South Highpoint - 5,910.48/sq mi
North Redington Beach - 5,727.97/sq mi
Lealman - 5,268.27/sq mi
West Lealman - 5,225.05/sq mi
Belleair Bluffs - 5,023.91/sq mi
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Old 08-30-2022, 12:06 PM
 
689 posts, read 637,966 times
Reputation: 1707
Wanderer,

I read your post a few times. It's not clear to me *how* you believe density will help Miami. Are you saying that if density increases that Miami will in turn develop better municipal, corporate, and consumer services?

Also, in terms of weather, yes Miami's weather is better in one sense, but it also has a hurricane season which Atlanta doesn't have. It also has high insurance premiums and street flooding. Those may be detractors.

Great post!
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Old 08-30-2022, 02:34 PM
 
836 posts, read 850,658 times
Reputation: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancuriosity View Post
Wanderer,

I read your post a few times. It's not clear to me *how* you believe density will help Miami. Are you saying that if density increases that Miami will in turn develop better municipal, corporate, and consumer services?

Also, in terms of weather, yes Miami's weather is better in one sense, but it also has a hurricane season which Atlanta doesn't have. It also has high insurance premiums and street flooding. Those may be detractors.

Great post!
Since Miami has only 36 sq. mi. of land compared to NYC (300.5 sq. mi), Chicago (227.7 sq. mi.), and LA (469.5 sq. mi.), and even smaller than St Louis (61.7 sq. mi.), DC (61.1 sq. mi.), Boston (48.3 sq. mi.), SF (46.9 sq. mi.), and even Buffalo (40.4 sq. mi.), Miami has no choice but to densify since it has the least land area compared to those cities, meaning that Miami will have to build condos, co-ops, and much more multi-family housing as opposed to the single family housing that still dominates much of that city.

Not to say that single family housing shouldn't exist in Miami, but the island of Manhattan is 22.83 sq. mi. but it has a population of 1.6 million, but Miami can have much more breathing room and still build multi-family housing in key areas (East Little Havana, Overtown, Wynwood, Edgewater, the Roads), and possibly reach at least a million people sometime this century.

Here's the Magic City Innovation Center that's proposed to be built in Miami's Upper East Side. It's a nice proposal and can add density to an area that's currently lower density. If it's higher density, then I expect the city to improve their municipal services, and from what I've heard, Miami is facing less hurricane damage than NYC nowadays (https://youtu.be/8seo2a6Z5dk?t=538), which would be unheard of back when I was a teen going up in NYC back in the 1980's and 1990's and Hurricane Andrew rampaged Miami and South FL back in 1992.
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