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Old 06-22-2010, 08:38 AM
 
329 posts, read 492,286 times
Reputation: 262

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
Exactly. There's tons of naysayers out there and in Miami-Dade there are plenty that feel scorned by the half penny tax and lack of fruition that came from it.

Once people see things up and moving, they're more inclined to say "hey, that works!" as opposed to seeing a piece of poster with pretty pictures of what could be.

I'm all about doing what we can do NOW, without a huge investment.

This is the exact argument for a streetcar. It cost orders of magnitude less and can be up and running sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
Would it be nice to have the FEC corridor used for Tri-Rail now? Yes. But as it stands now, Tri-Rail has dismal performance time and is not that heavily traveled. Additionally you have to work with two other counties, who, by looking at them, don't have a lick of sense when it comes to implementing mass transit.

If there is a train track sitting EMPTY that goes through the urban core, why not use it??

To gix:

I think my calling it Metrorail is perhaps what's getting you and I confused. The FEC corridor would utilize the existing at grade tracks, have some shoulders created for passing trains and have some stations constructed along the track.
The tracks go to Downtown, pass through the new Midtown Miami center, the Design District and as I previously noted, are very close to the entire Midtown district.

I think you are missing the point. Whatever is created on the FEC tracks will mainly be to bring people in and out of downtown. There currently isn't much demand for this right now. The FEC tracks are going to create a way for someone who is downtown to get up to Ft. Lauderdale, Palm Beach and even Jacksonville. It's not going to be the most convenient system to get people from Midtwon to Downtown and all the desired spots along the way. Therefore even if they started construction for something on the FEC greenway right now they would still need to build something else to get people around. The metromover is not efficient and cost more money than it is worth. So the next logical plan is a street car.

So if the streetcar is going to service 90% of what the people are going to do and what is on the FEC greenway is going to service the 10% of people who want to travel between downtown Miami and downtown Ft. Lauderdale then why not start the streetcar system.

Take a look at the PDF I attached. It's a good visual aid for our discussion. You can see there are future transit sheds that are planned along the FEC greenway. But look at the distance between them.

Metrorail is efficient at moving people longer distances and therefore is better situated to bring people in and out of downtown.

Metromover was intended to move people throughout downtown but was developed before they had an ideal of how big downtown would be. It not an inefficient system. So the most efficient system for moving people WITHIN downtown is a street car. If metromover wasn't already built they would probably just scrap the ideal and go with street cars through the downtown area, but what's done is done. Most of the future plans for new downtown transit is streetcars. For example connecting the health district will be done by streetcar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
The people of Miami deserve a better Metro system and this is one way we can work to improve it, no matter if it's temporary or not.
The people of Miami deserve efficient and cost effective pubic transportation. You keep contradiction yourself. You argue that the MIC at the airport was a waste of money when it would have had to been built regardless of when/how another MIC is built downtown. Then you want them to build something on the FEC greenway to get between Midtown and Downtown only to be replaced in 10 years and not to mention a streetcar system is being designed to do the exact same thing.

It seems as though you are just against a steetcar system and want a metrorail system not because it's more efficient but because you think it's cool.

If you built the Metrorail and Streetcar system today the Streetcar system would be finished first and even when they are both finished more people would use the street car system because its more convenient. So why focus on the metrorail???

Here is a good article about the status of the FEC greenway.

Amtrak Studies Florida East Coast Railway Service as State Advances High-Speed Rail « The Transport Politic
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Transit.pdf (83.3 KB, 143 views)
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:09 AM
 
3,849 posts, read 8,066,493 times
Reputation: 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer1000 View Post
I think you are missing the point. Whatever is created on the FEC tracks will mainly be to bring people in and out of downtown. There currently isn't much demand for this right now. The FEC tracks are going to create a way for someone who is downtown to get up to Ft. Lauderdale, Palm Beach and even Jacksonville. It's not going to be the most convenient system to get people from Midtwon to Downtown and all the desired spots along the way. Therefore even if they started construction for something on the FEC greenway right now they would still need to build something else to get people around. The metromover is not efficient and cost more money than it is worth. So the next logical plan is a street car.
So Miami has to wait on FTL? WPB? Jacksonville?! All of these cities and counties have done NADA when it comes to mass train transit. Paper is cheap and so are they. Anyone can draw pretty pictures, but none of them actually put their plans in to action.

Quote:
So if the streetcar is going to service 90% of what the people are going to do and what is on the FEC greenway is going to service the 10% of people who want to travel between downtown Miami and downtown Ft. Lauderdale then why not start the streetcar system.
I'm not talking about the line going to FTL. I'm just talking about going from the Port of Miami to North Bay Village. The unused portion, that's all. The other plans can be reevaluated in the future. Again, talk is cheap.


Quote:
Metrorail is efficient at moving people longer distances and therefore is better situated to bring people in and out of downtown.
So bringing people from Midtown or North Bay Village isn't bringing people Downtown? You do realize the current Metrorail stops are about 1 mile apart, right? The unused FEC line is about 5.5 miles. If you put 6 or 7 stops on the line, it's not going to break it.


Quote:
Metromover was intended to move people throughout downtown but was developed before they had an ideal of how big downtown would be. It not an inefficient system. So the most efficient system for moving people WITHIN downtown is a street car. If metromover wasn't already built they would probably just scrap the ideal and go with street cars through the downtown area, but what's done is done. Most of the future plans for new downtown transit is streetcars. For example connecting the health district will be done by streetcar.
Metromover not efficient? Metromover does not wait on traffic, doesn't have to stop if there's a car accident, and can hum along even if the roads below start flooding during heavy rain.

A streetcar doesn't have the luxury of going past all the problems at street level.

Who wants to take the public transit if you're getting stuck in the same traffic you would already be in if you were driving?


Quote:
The people of Miami deserve efficient and cost effective pubic transportation. You keep contradiction yourself. You argue that the MIC at the airport was a waste of money when it would have had to been built regardless of when/how another MIC is built downtown. Then you want them to build something on the FEC greenway to get between Midtown and Downtown only to be replaced in 10 years and not to mention a streetcar system is being designed to do the exact same thing.
I'm not contradicting myself at all. I am for a cost effective, comprehensive transportation system.

We have people running all over the city with ideas of doing this, that and the other, yet when it comes down to it at the end of the day what do the people of Miami have? Pretty pictures on paper.

Not utilizing a rail corridor that isn't even being used and instead focusing on a system that doesn't even exist but rather is written down and filed some place doesn't make any sense.

I think you miss the point that the plans proposed are NOT set in stone.

Quote:
It seems as though you are just against a steetcar system and want a metrorail system not because it's more efficient but because you think it's cool.
I'm not against a street car at all. I'm against continually waiting for change that was promised years ago.

I'm against letting the people of Miami continue to suffer with paltry transportation when there is a line we could be working with RIGHT NOW that would improve transportation to new development that will spur the continued development of the Midtown Miami area.

I'm against denying the Miami Design District, residents of Little Haiti and the masses of people north of the Venetian Causeway an opportunity to take a train Downtown or have tourist visit the Design District, Midtown, and even Little Haiti which could create a Haitian Village of sorts which would spur job growth, and small business in a currently depressed area.

I'm against waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

That's what the residents of Miami think of MDT and that's why we need to unite and create better, viable ideas that can be implemented in the short term instead of waiting for a train that will never come.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Coconut Grove, Miami
470 posts, read 1,058,660 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
So Miami has to wait on FTL? WPB? Jacksonville?! All of these cities and counties have done NADA when it comes to mass train transit. Paper is cheap and so are they. Anyone can draw pretty pictures, but none of them actually put their plans in to action.



I'm not talking about the line going to FTL. I'm just talking about going from the Port of Miami to North Bay Village. The unused portion, that's all. The other plans can be reevaluated in the future. Again, talk is cheap.




So bringing people from Midtown or North Bay Village isn't bringing people Downtown? You do realize the current Metrorail stops are about 1 mile apart, right? The unused FEC line is about 5.5 miles. If you put 6 or 7 stops on the line, it's not going to break it.




Metromover not efficient? Metromover does not wait on traffic, doesn't have to stop if there's a car accident, and can hum along even if the roads below start flooding during heavy rain.

A streetcar doesn't have the luxury of going past all the problems at street level.

Who wants to take the public transit if you're getting stuck in the same traffic you would already be in if you were driving?




I'm not contradicting myself at all. I am for a cost effective, comprehensive transportation system.

We have people running all over the city with ideas of doing this, that and the other, yet when it comes down to it at the end of the day what do the people of Miami have? Pretty pictures on paper.

Not utilizing a rail corridor that isn't even being used and instead focusing on a system that doesn't even exist but rather is written down and filed some place doesn't make any sense.

I think you miss the point that the plans proposed are NOT set in stone.



I'm not against a street car at all. I'm against continually waiting for change that was promised years ago.

I'm against letting the people of Miami continue to suffer with paltry transportation when there is a line we could be working with RIGHT NOW that would improve transportation to new development that will spur the continued development of the Midtown Miami area.

I'm against denying the Miami Design District, residents of Little Haiti and the masses of people north of the Venetian Causeway an opportunity to take a train Downtown or have tourist visit the Design District, Midtown, and even Little Haiti which could create a Haitian Village of sorts which would spur job growth, and small business in a currently depressed area.

I'm against waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

That's what the residents of Miami think of MDT and that's why we need to unite and create better, viable ideas that can be implemented in the short term instead of waiting for a train that will never come.
Exactly. Besides the fact that in South Florida all there is is Dade, and that Broward and Palm Beach wether people like it or not are SUBURBS of Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach aren't major cities or BIG cities, mass transit doesn't go for them, doesn't fi for them and it's something the city of the county cares about or even the residents living there. They know they are living in the suburbs and that mass transit doesn't exist and they need a car and they are happy with that. The people living there that want mass transit move to Miami. Broward and Palm Beach will NEVER have any type of mass transit, so waiting for they to get started will make Miami wait for ever. You shouldn't worry about what other cities have or are doing, Miami should just worryu about itself, but if you want to talk about other cities outside Dade County, you talk about Orlando or Tampa or the cities or the city in North Florida.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:07 AM
 
329 posts, read 492,286 times
Reputation: 262
I'm getting very confused as to why you don't understand this. The Entire FEC railway is PRIVATELY owned. They are going to make decisions in the best interest of their entire railway, NOT just the city of MIAMI. The state has asked for $268 million to restore Amtrak service to this line running form downtown Miami up to Jacksonville. The existing Amtrak route that begins over near the airport takes 9 1/2 hours to get to Jacksonville and doesn't travel as close to the densely populated areas that the FEC railway does.

So in the meantime the FEC will continue to wait to see what is the best option for THEIR railway. The city of Miami just cant walk in and say hey were going to use you tracks until you make up your mind. It's not their property. They are not waiting on FTL or WPB they are waiting on FEC.

They are working trying to ensure that there is some form of public transit along that line, (hopefully metrorail) but in the meantime they have to put something in place that handles the growing population. Since they project they need a streetcar system then why not start on it now?

You want great public transit for the city and I agree but the government just cant do whatever they want.

You're like the typical armchair quarterback as most people are. They don't know all the facts and think there is a simply easy answer that politicians are just completely ignoring because they are corrupt. While I'm not arguing that no mistakes haven't been made its not all black and white.
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:24 PM
 
3,849 posts, read 8,066,493 times
Reputation: 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer1000 View Post
I'm getting very confused as to why you don't understand this. The Entire FEC railway is PRIVATELY owned. They are going to make decisions in the best interest of their entire railway, NOT just the city of MIAMI. The state has asked for $268 million to restore Amtrak service to this line running form downtown Miami up to Jacksonville. The existing Amtrak route that begins over near the airport takes 9 1/2 hours to get to Jacksonville and doesn't travel as close to the densely populated areas that the FEC railway does.

So in the meantime the FEC will continue to wait to see what is the best option for THEIR railway. The city of Miami just cant walk in and say hey were going to use you tracks until you make up your mind. It's not their property. They are not waiting on FTL or WPB they are waiting on FEC.

They are working trying to ensure that there is some form of public transit along that line, (hopefully metrorail) but in the meantime they have to put something in place that handles the growing population. Since they project they need a streetcar system then why not start on it now?

You want great public transit for the city and I agree but the government just cant do whatever they want.

You're like the typical armchair quarterback as most people are. They don't know all the facts and think there is a simply easy answer that politicians are just completely ignoring because they are corrupt. While I'm not arguing that no mistakes haven't been made its not all black and white.
If you don't think I understand this then you obviously haven't read my past posts.

Obviously the FEC corridor is privately owned. I have been an advocate of MDT leasing the corridor from them.

I think what you're not understanding is the track, beginning at the Port of Miami, to just under North Bay Village, is broken, defunct, not suitable for train use at this time. NOBODY uses those tracks.

It makes the most sense for MDT to come in, lease the aforementioned piece of track, fix it for rail use and utilize this portion while the rest of the line is being sorted out.

Why would FEC not want to lease tracks and make money off of them when they're currently sitting empty, unused and continuing to degrade?? Why would they want to wait for the entire system to be planned when they can have a piece of the pie now?

FEC would still own the rails and would be able to still do what's in their best interest once the entire FL east coast line has got to the point of actual implementation.

If they want to do the street car, fine, DO IT.

As I said, I get tired of people saying "oh, we'll do this and that and this" and at the end of the day it gets filed away and the people get nothing but a headache from all the talking.

Armchair quarterback, I'm not, I'm looking for what can be done NOW, not pie in the sky "Ohhh, this is what's planned so I can't do anything about it" Meanwhile we wait and wait and wait and wait and pretty soon you'll realize you have just as much now and you did then.

The SFECC study has said the earliest it would ever happen (the FEC corridor) is 2014, and that's not looking really good at this point.

As I said before, look at the progress PBC and Broward have made in terms of mass transit trains... I just cannot believe anyone feels comfortable letting 2/3 of the project fall on them when they can't even get more than a bus running. If it weren't for FDOT, Tri-Rail wouldn't even be here.

The bottom line is you can either be active, demand that the easy, shovel ready projects are at least taken care of, or you can sit on your bum, look at the pretty pictures and say "well, that's it, I can't do anything now, it's already been planned"
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:34 PM
 
1,946 posts, read 4,830,294 times
Reputation: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
If you don't think I understand this then you obviously haven't read my past posts.

Obviously the FEC corridor is privately owned. I have been an advocate of MDT leasing the corridor from them.

I think what you're not understanding is the track, beginning at the Port of Miami, to just under North Bay Village, is broken, defunct, not suitable for train use at this time. NOBODY uses those tracks.

It makes the most sense for MDT to come in, lease the aforementioned piece of track, fix it for rail use and utilize this portion while the rest of the line is being sorted out.

Why would FEC not want to lease tracks and make money off of them when they're currently sitting empty, unused and continuing to degrade?? Why would they want to wait for the entire system to be planned when they can have a piece of the pie now?

FEC would still own the rails and would be able to still do what's in their best interest once the entire FL east coast line has got to the point of actual implementation.

If they want to do the street car, fine, DO IT.

As I said, I get tired of people saying "oh, we'll do this and that and this" and at the end of the day it gets filed away and the people get nothing but a headache from all the talking.

Armchair quarterback, I'm not, I'm looking for what can be done NOW, not pie in the sky "Ohhh, this is what's planned so I can't do anything about it" Meanwhile we wait and wait and wait and wait and pretty soon you'll realize you have just as much now and you did then.

The SFECC study has said the earliest it would ever happen (the FEC corridor) is 2014, and that's not looking really good at this point.

As I said before, look at the progress PBC and Broward have made in terms of mass transit trains... I just cannot believe anyone feels comfortable letting 2/3 of the project fall on them when they can't even get more than a bus running. If it weren't for FDOT, Tri-Rail wouldn't even be here.

The bottom line is you can either be active, demand that the easy, shovel ready projects are at least taken care of, or you can sit on your bum, look at the pretty pictures and say "well, that's it, I can't do anything now, it's already been planned"
Yes they could lease it, maybe there would be incentives for FEC to let them do so....but as gixxer said, it's FEC's call. What does it matter what you or I think when neither of us are involved in FEC's decision making process? Even so, it looks like the rails heading to the port are looking to be put back into use.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:33 AM
 
Location: FL
87 posts, read 230,382 times
Reputation: 53
Default Public Transit in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties...

This post is for people looking for information about public transit in South Florida ***MOD CUT***

I want to share my personal story about using public transit in a more limited place than South Florida.

Before I moved to South Florida, I was living in Orlando Metro Area for three years. My only source of transportation during all this time was public transit. LINX is the name of the regional transit authority of Central Florida. LYNX is not the most complete and efficient transit system, but at least satisfied my basic needs while I was working as a library aide... earning $7.25 per hr and, at the same time, LEARNING ENGLISH and completing my Master's Degree... studying during evenings and weekends.

Certainly I had to make many adjustments to my lifestyle... particularly the nightlife... but I always found some classmate to hang out with.
I just remember how some people I dated judged me as lazy or low class just for not having a car and living in a cheap and not so good neigborhood. I didn't care what other people thought about me... my main goal in Orlando was to get my degree and I DID IT last May.

Now I moved to South Florida and still using public transit... both Broward and Miami-Dade. I am the most happy man in this World... there is a regional rail, public bus and metro rail available. WAS THERE SOMETHING SIMILAR IN ORLANDO??.... NOOOO!!!

For now, public transit satisfies my needs and even much better than before in Orlando. I will get a car eventually... it is necessary in South Florida but not essential... at least for me.

MY POINTS:
1. There are many other transit systems worst than in South Florida.
2. If you are really motivated, you get what you want... it doesn't matter your limitations or how long does it takes.
3. Get a car if you can afford it, when you can afford it... but don't think it is impossible to live in South Florida without it.

REPEAT WITH ME... "IN AN EASY AND RELAXED MANNER, IN A HEALTHY AND A POSITIVE WAY... EVERYTHING I NEED IS NOW COMING TO ME... IN ITS OWN PERFECT TIME, FOR THE HIGHEST GOOD OF ALL"

Last edited by doggiebus; 06-24-2010 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Florida
375 posts, read 854,794 times
Reputation: 194
Congrats! I have lived here in South Florida(north Miami-dade county, currently in Kendall) and have made it without a car. Although I do have a scooter, which is cheap and I find very beneficial
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:48 AM
 
3,849 posts, read 8,066,493 times
Reputation: 2006
Good post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by flmover View Post
2. If you are really motivated, you get what you want... it doesn't matter your limitations or how long does it takes.
And this is very true! I get tired of people saying "but I can't, I can't!" Nonsense is what I say! We're human and above all Americans. We can do whatever we put our minds to.

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Old 06-27-2010, 02:26 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,671,712 times
Reputation: 2072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
Good post!



And this is very true! I get tired of people saying "but I can't, I can't!" Nonsense is what I say! We're human and above all Americans. We can do whatever we put our minds to.

For you

Link (http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/02/v-print/1608679/special-amtrak-train-rolls-from.html - broken link)
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