[Perferator]

Originally Posted by michsnowlvr

Figured I would comment on a few things from these two posts here, as I am very familiar with the meteorology/climatology of southeast Michigan, as long as the myths that go with it.

The statement about lake effect is true, while Detroit sees flurries and snow showers travel over from lake Michigan on a frequent basis, most of the time it is just a dusting (once in a while you will get 1-3", but even this is usually in localized areas). All the while snowbelts out west may be getting buried.

Also, yes often times storms will track northwest of Detroit, thus pounding Saginaw/Flint with 6-10" while Detroit rain ending as 2" of snow. However this is a moot point, as it is equally as common for a storm to track south of the state, giving Detroit 6-10" while Saginaw/Flint see just a dusting on the far northern track of the storm. Most storms that track northeast to the area will NOT distribute snow evenly from Saginaw to Detroit (best chance you will see this is from an Alberta clipper from our northwest).

The main difference in snow in the Detroit area (South Lyon to Grosse Ile for example) is that South Lyon can and often does get quite a bit more lake effect, so to see 4" in South Lyon in late November or December with 1" in Grosse Ile is a very common occurrance, mainly early in the winter, because much of it likely comes from Lake Michigan. However, once you get deeper into winter when storms take center stage and lake effect takes the back burner, this will not necessarily be the case, as the downriver area can easily have deeper snow on the ground than the northern suburbs, all depending where storm track sets up. You can find cases at some point in almost every winter (example, late last Feb snowdepth was 12" downriver with about 10" in southwest Oakland county, in Jan 2009 it was about 14" deep downriver with 9" in southwest Oakland county, etc etc). So to say it rarely snows much downriver and that they always have more snow in Lyon Twp than GI is false. I live in Wyandotte but spend quite a bit of time in southern Oakland county (from Clawson to Royal Oak), sometimes they have more snow, sometimes we do. To say less lake effect snow falls downriver than Detroits northern areas, however, is true.

Lake effect does play a huge role on snow in this state. In fact, thanks to an active storm track, winters in southeast MI have been getting somewhat snowier this past decade, and 4 winters in the past 8 years Detroit saw more snow than either the non-lake effect areas of the U.P. (ie Menominee area) or northeast MI (south of Alpena but north of Saginaw Bay). If you took away the lake effect influence, you would be surprised how similar snowfall amounts would be. Of course, snowcover, even if it is thin, lasts all winter in northern MI, while southern MI usually sees periods of bare ground in between periods of snowcover, even when the snowcover gets fairly deep,

Any given winter will see difference from place to place, so the best thing to do is to look at the seasonal averages for a general composite of the area.

Flint, MI
Average snowfall: 48"
Ave days with measurable snowfall: 44 days
Avg days with 1" or more of snow on ground: 64 days

Detroit, MI
Average snowfall: 44"
Ave days with measurable snowfall: 37 days
Avg days with 1" or more of snow on ground: 48 days

Toledo, OH
Average snowfall: 38"
Ave days with measurable snowfall: 36 days
Avg days with 1" or more of snow on ground: 47 days


BOTTOM LINE: Obviously snowfall decreases slightly as you head from mid-Michigan into Ohio, especially in terms of snow on the ground (mid-Michigan averages over 2 weeks more of snowcover than the extreme southeast corner of the state), but the differences arent nearly as dramatic as some may lead you to believe, especially those old "when I was a boy we walked uphill in the snow both ways...." ALSO of note, while there is no average for these areas, areas BETWEEN Flint and Detroit, ie Detroits northwest suburbs, actually average probably over 50" because of being more lake effect prone.

I get a kick out of the downstaters tussling over a few inches of avg snowfall

We could top those differences in one afternoon up here.

[danielj72]

Originally Posted by Perferator

I get a kick out of the downstaters tussling over a few inches of avg snowfall

We could top those differences in one afternoon up here.

Its not really about being downstate vs "the north" (which everyone has a different opinion on where that begins anyway) Many downstate communities like Holland, Muskegon etc get alot of snow. They get alot more snow than the "up north" towns of Alpena and Oscoda, or even Menominee in the UP. Lake effect snow is really funny too, when I lived in the Soo we may get a foot or so of snow, but just a few miles south of town they got half of what we get. St Ignace rarely got half of what we got. They are not downwind of the Lakes, so they get nothing for snow. Perferator I am guessing by the way you talk about your snow that you must be in one of the big snowbelts near Petoskey or TC. Not all of northern Michigan gets the big snow. Oscoda for example doesnt get much more than Saginaw. By the standards of the rest of the country all of Michigan gets alot of snow. Some just get more than others.

[mkfarnam]

When I was young(50's & 60's) my Grandfather owned a ski lodge called "Caberfae"pronounced(Caber-fay)..........better known today as "Caberfae Peaks"
Back then it was a log lounge with a kitchen and a dinner area about the size of a small elementary school cafateria.
Only 2-3 hills had "lifts". Then they were just rotating ropes that a skier held on to while they were pulled back up the hill.
Does anyone remember this?

[Bydand]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

When I was young(50's & 60's) my Grandfather owned a ski lodge called "Caberfae"pronounced(Caber-fay)..........better known today as "Caberfae Peaks"
Back then it was a log lounge with a kitchen and a dinner area about the size of a small elementary school cafateria.
Only 2-3 hills had "lifts". Then they were just rotating ropes that a skier held on to while they were pulled back up the hill.
Does anyone remember this?

I remember Caberfae when it was small and homey. A few rope tows, cool little warming hut, and the nicest people. I was just a wee tike the first time I went there (must have been around 67 or 68) right before it grew big.

Just like I remember Sylvan Knob, before it turned all snooty and grew into the mess that is Sylvan Resort back in the 80's. (that's when Lynn Mead sold it to Harry Melling)

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by danielj72

You are right that the northwest suburbs like South Lyon get more snow than those in Detroits downriver area. The farther west you are the more snow you get. The last of the lake effect snow bands die off in those higher elevations north and west of Detroit. (Livingston and Oakland counties) Where I live we get a fair amount of snow, but drive 50 miles west on M-57 and you will find they get a noticable amount more. Its not about how far north you are like everyone believes. There are areas near Menominee in the UP that get very little snow. It is really about lake effect snow. The closer to Lake Michigan you are the more lake moisture you will have. Also the higher your elevation the better too. Lake effect snow is intesnified by high elevation (called Orographic effect). This is why Gaylord Michigan gets so much more snow than Traverse city for example. Metro Detroit has two things going against it when it comes to snow amounts. First the common storm track brings storms on a path that favors rain and warmer air in the southeast corner of the state. How often have you seen a winter storm where the winter storm warnings begin near Flint and Lansing and north of there? Seems to be the common storm track in the winter. Saginaw, Flint and Lansing may get 6-10 inches, while Detroit area gets rain followed by 2 inches. This happens an awful lot. The other factor is the lack of Lake Michigan moisture. Metro Detroit rarely sees any accumulating snow from Lake effect. If Lake effect reaches Detroit at all, usually just a dusting.

At higher altitudes, the oxogen thins out. .

Another example, I lived in SoCal at the foothills of the San Gabriel Mnt's.
It could be hot where I was while the mountain top (@4900') was snow capped.

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by Bydand

I remember Caberfae when it was small and homey. A few rope tows, cool little warming hut, and the nicest people. I was just a wee tike the first time I went there (must have been around 67 or 68) right before it grew big.

Just like I remember Sylvan Knob, before it turned all snooty and grew into the mess that is Sylvan Resort back in the 80's. (that's when Lynn Mead sold it to Harry Melling)

I remember, in the spring we searched the slopes for change that skiers lost.
Then along came "zipper pockets"...

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by Bydand

I remember Caberfae when it was small and homey. A few rope tows, cool little warming hut, and the nicest people. I was just a wee tike the first time I went there (must have been around 67 or 68) right before it grew big.

Just like I remember Sylvan Knob, before it turned all snooty and grew into the mess that is Sylvan Resort back in the 80's. (that's when Lynn Mead sold it to Harry Melling)

That's my Gandpa at Caberfae.( Victor Bartlette) He was the cook. He also owner a real estate business in Cadillac, Mi.

[Perferator]

Originally Posted by danielj72

Its not really about being downstate vs "the north" (which everyone has a different opinion on where that begins anyway) Many downstate communities like Holland, Muskegon etc get alot of snow. They get alot more snow than the "up north" towns of Alpena and Oscoda, or even Menominee in the UP. Lake effect snow is really funny too, when I lived in the Soo we may get a foot or so of snow, but just a few miles south of town they got half of what we get. St Ignace rarely got half of what we got. They are not downwind of the Lakes, so they get nothing for snow. Perferator I am guessing by the way you talk about your snow that you must be in one of the big snowbelts near Petoskey or TC. Not all of northern Michigan gets the big snow. Oscoda for example doesnt get much more than Saginaw. By the standards of the rest of the country all of Michigan gets alot of snow. Some just get more than others.

Pretty good guess, Daniel (peek at my avatar....Boyne City). Yeah, I know about the west siders down there getting a ton of snow but I cant resist teasing the flatlanders on the southeast corner of the mitt.

We are in the snowbelt....sometimes it's the buckle of the belt. Charlevoix might get a few inches and we'll get a foot. Petoskey may get 6" and we get a dusting. Strange, you cant predict you can only be ready for it.

[danielj72]

Originally Posted by Perferator

Pretty good guess, Daniel (peek at my avatar....Boyne City). Yeah, I know about the west siders down there getting a ton of snow but I cant resist teasing the flatlanders on the southeast corner of the mitt.

We are in the snowbelt....sometimes it's the buckle of the belt. Charlevoix might get a few inches and we'll get a foot. Petoskey may get 6" and we get a dusting. Strange, you cant predict you can only be ready for it.

Actually we are the true flatlanders here in the Saginaw valley. By far this is the flatest part of the state. Southeast Michigan is quite hilly in places. There are places down there that have hills and elevation that come close to what you have in the north west lower peninsula. But Im all for picking on SE Michigan anyway lol.

[michsnowlvr]

Originally Posted by danielj72

Its not really about being downstate vs "the north" (which everyone has a different opinion on where that begins anyway) Many downstate communities like Holland, Muskegon etc get alot of snow. They get alot more snow than the "up north" towns of Alpena and Oscoda, or even Menominee in the UP. Lake effect snow is really funny too, when I lived in the Soo we may get a foot or so of snow, but just a few miles south of town they got half of what we get. St Ignace rarely got half of what we got. They are not downwind of the Lakes, so they get nothing for snow. Perferator I am guessing by the way you talk about your snow that you must be in one of the big snowbelts near Petoskey or TC. Not all of northern Michigan gets the big snow. Oscoda for example doesnt get much more than Saginaw. By the standards of the rest of the country all of Michigan gets alot of snow. Some just get more than others.

Good post. We forget that ALL of MI basically averages "a lot" of snow compare to most places in the country. And agreed, its not about tussling over a few inches of snow, I just have a lot of knowledge about the climatology of MI, and a lot of time the weather gets exaggerated one way or the other. Michigans southwesternmost county gets a lot more snow than many places "up north". I started an annual UP winter trip 4 years ago (late Feb or early Mar), and ALL 4 times, there has been more snow on the ground here in SE MI than there has been in St Ignace. Of course this is part coincidence, as St Ignace does average a little more, but the point is, if you are not in the snowbelt, it ALL depends on storm track. They can hold snow better up north, that is certain. Places in NE lower MI, outside the snowbelt, average barely 10" more snow than the Detroit area, but in terms of snowcover, they average appox 90 days of solid snowcover to Detroits 50 days. Some of Detroits best winters do see 70-90 days of solid snowcover while NE MI's best winters can see 120-140 days of solid snowcover. However, By the time you hit the NE U.P., you are AVERAGING nearly 140 days of solid snowcover per winter, and its really hard to top 160 or so days.