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Old 04-27-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,625,883 times
Reputation: 4404

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Well....yes those things are my opinion, but do not form the foundation of my argument. However, again, just because it is my opinion does not mean that its not true. However, my thesis was in no way based upon these OPINIONS....but rather...the FACTS.
I understand your frustration with people who deny racism and the effects of racism.

But my question is... once you've established that racism and the effects are real, what is next? I mean, I get it. It's terrible. But what exactly are you looking for from whites? Should I feel guilty, or apologize, or what? I don't really care to be lumped into the group "white people", as if I am somehow bound to the group because they have similar skin color. As a white person, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to DO about racism or the societal problems that have resulted. Other than to not be a racist. Should I give everything away? Turn down job offers? I don't feel like I should be responsible for the actions of others, simply because I happen to have the same skin color. I didn't choose to be white. Nor did other white people ask my permission before being racist a-holes.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Ocqueoc, MI - Extreme N.E. Lower Peninsula
275 posts, read 394,387 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Well....yes those things are my opinion, but do not form the foundation of my argument. However, again, just because it is my opinion does not mean that its not true. However, my thesis was in no way based upon these OPINIONS....but rather...the FACTS.
You ask that we empathize and understand. I acknowledge the facts of racial inequality and racism. I ask you to consider looking at my point of view regarding an assertion of yours that I found offensive. You ignore my question.

Regardless of the validity of your argument, if your delivery alienates your audience then I believe there is very little chance that your point will ever be made. If your goal is to anger and alienate your audience, then I say job well done. If your goal is to encourage people to ponder what you are saying in the hope of a positive outcome, then I would say you have failed miserably.

I once had an assistant manager that I had to counsel. He was trying to make a valid point with one of our employees, but he started the conversation with "You dumb mother....." The employee he was attempting to correct didn't hear another word he said. My counsel to the assistant manager was basically this. "Your point was lost in your delivery. The content was valid, but your presentation sucked." That moment of insight has served me well over the years. Please consider pondering that.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:27 AM
 
12,503 posts, read 7,599,771 times
Reputation: 4756
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
I understand your frustration with people who deny racism and the effects of racism.

But my question is... once you've established that racism and the effects are real, what is next? I mean, I get it. It's terrible. But what exactly are you looking for from whites? Should I feel guilty, or apologize, or what? I don't really care to be lumped into the group "white people", as if I am somehow bound to the group because they have similar skin color. As a white person, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to DO about racism or the societal problems that have resulted. Other than to not be a racist. Should I give everything away? Turn down job offers? I don't feel like I should be responsible for the actions of others, simply because I happen to have the same skin color. I didn't choose to be white. Nor did other white people ask my permission before being racist a-holes.
I am not looking for or expecting anything, other than an academic exercise in what should happen in a perfect world. In truth, I simply explain the black condition....which cannot be done without using history. Everything happens for a reason and when it comes to the black condition and black behaviors I explain how the present was created from the past. I am not bitter, angry or asking for anything. I simply do not believe in making observations without explanations because often times observations without explanations feed into old doctrines of race inferiority and superiority by way of genetics. Now, if you ask me do I believe that society should fix or repair what it inflicted upon blacks.....I will argue yes. However, I have no hope or belief that America will ever change enough to do that. Look at the topic of this thread line. This violence is happening primarily in the black community and is black on black. Once cannot help to see that observation....but that observation DESERVES an explanation and only one truly concerned with solutions would want to truly understand the causes.

The fact that you are white and don't like being lumped together as "white people" does not change the facts of what "white racism" has done to people. I hear women make statements like "men are dogs". Well.....because I treat women with respect and have treated my wife with respect, does not mean that there are not a lot of men who cheat and treat women like crap. When I met my wife she was very defensive and distrusting of me because of her past relationships. She had every right to feel the way she did and seek to protect herself from being used and hurt.....by another man. It was hard to deal with but I RESPECTED her experiences because I know a lot of men do use and treat women wrong. She could not judge me by the content of my character, as opposed to my gender, because she did not KNOW me well enough to do that. Its only after you get to KNOW a person that you can judge them by the content of their character. She opened up after about a year. Because I am not a dog I do not get offend by being lumped in as a man....because a lot of men are dogs. People have to protect themselves in this world and I understand that men have ruined the reputation of men in general because of their behavior. However, when my wife got to KNOW me, it went from being judge by my membership to the male gender to being judged as an individual. It might be easy to say judge not lest ye be judged.....but there are built in survival mechanisms that lead people to pass judgement as a means of protection.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-27-2011 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:37 AM
 
12,503 posts, read 7,599,771 times
Reputation: 4756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wojo View Post
You ask that we empathize and understand. I acknowledge the facts of racial inequality and racism. I ask you to consider looking at my point of view regarding an assertion of yours that I found offensive. You ignore my question.
No I am not. I am not asking anything from you. I am not looking for the popularly assumed "hand out". Truth, the facts, is what it is. I just present it to offer explanations to observations. What you do with the information after that point does not matter to me. I did my part.

Quote:
Regardless of the validity of your argument, if your delivery alienates your audience then I believe there is very little chance that your point will ever be made. If your goal is to anger and alienate your audience, then I say job well done. If your goal is to encourage people to ponder what you are saying in the hope of a positive outcome, then I would say you have failed miserably.
My delivery problem starts with the topic of race. White folks seem really uncomfortable and insecure about the topic, IN MY OPINION. Most black folks don't have any problem talking about it. So I guess I was right when I opined that it was the AUDIENCE who was angry....and then projecting that I was therefore also angry. Nope....I am not angry. I might be stressed today....but that is due to work the last month. Actually posting kind of calms my nerves.

Quote:
I once had an assistant manager that I had to counsel. He was trying to make a valid point with one of our employees, but he started the conversation with "You dumb mother....." The employee he was attempting to correct didn't hear another word he said. My counsel to the assistant manager was basically this. "Your point was lost in your delivery. The content was valid, but your presentation sucked." That moment of insight has served me well over the years. Please consider pondering that.
Yes....and the equivalent of "You dumb mother....." in this debate is "white racism".....its a TOPIC that simply shuts a lot of white folks down and makes them feel defensive, angry and the rest.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Ocqueoc, MI - Extreme N.E. Lower Peninsula
275 posts, read 394,387 times
Reputation: 276
It appears that you are incapable or unwilling to answer a question. I don't think you are remotely interested in having a discussion. I've heard enough of your dissertation to feel comfortable that I know your position.

For me, this exchange is at an end. This is not a statement of agreement or disagreement with you. This is just an acknowledgement of the futility of my expectation that this was a discussion. Good luck to you, sir.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:14 AM
 
12,503 posts, read 7,599,771 times
Reputation: 4756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wojo View Post
It appears that you are incapable or unwilling to answer a question. I don't think you are remotely interested in having a discussion. I've heard enough of your dissertation to feel comfortable that I know your position.
Yes...especially when the question is a riddle. Let me see how many posts I havee in this thread.....yet.....I am not remotely interested in a discussion. What were you trying to communicate.....that I need to change my delivery? Well.....is not offensive subjective to a large degree? If women ask a man if she looks fat in a pair of jeans, and she does because shee IS FAT, but does not like the truth of being fat.....she might find that truth to be offensive. In other words, I have had enough debates on this topic to learn that the thing that really offend people is not the delivery.....but the pain of the truth. I mean, I don't think that I have said anything that should make people angry or me alienated....if people are truth seekers and not truth avoiders. If you know you are NOT racist, but realize that others are and that such people have had a detrimental impact upon others......then why should one get angry for me speaking that truth. It makes no sense unless one has a guilty feeling...which one should not have if they are not guily of anything.

Quote:
For me, this exchange is at an end. This is not a statement of agreement or disagreement with you. This is just an acknowledgement of the futility of my expectation that this was a discussion. Good luck to you, sir.
Truth is not diminished or increased by agreement or disagreement.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:11 PM
 
847 posts, read 1,672,378 times
Reputation: 703
ego.
ego.
and MORE ego. the ego leads you to believe that you can control a situation or create a certain outcome. it drives you to argue, to point a finger and say, 'you were wrong! justice must be served!'
stop trying to police the world and accept that every injustice is all part of the big picture. trust it and then let it go. god doesn't need your help. with all this arguing you only EMPOWER the very thing you detest. same for myself or anyone who responds to you. 'racism' will always be huge in your life if you carry on like this. why do you continue to give it so much power?
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:27 PM
 
Location: SE Michigan
6,191 posts, read 15,854,873 times
Reputation: 10268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
blah blah blah, blah, blah, blahbiddy-blah blah!
tjay, you won't change his mind. He lives to pontificate, not discuss. Anyone that doesn't agree with him is wrong and a racist, blah blah.

He needs to do this because his ego and identity is indelibly tied to this racism agenda. He won't stop because he cannot...otherwise who would he be? Nobody......
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:36 PM
 
847 posts, read 1,672,378 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
tjay, you won't change his mind. He lives to pontificate, not discuss. Anyone that doesn't agree with him is wrong and a racist, blah blah.

He needs to do this because his ego and identity is indelibly tied to this racism agenda. He won't stop because he cannot...otherwise who would he be? Nobody......
i know. i guess everybody's gotta do what they gotta do:}

i was a little irritated how he keeps saying he's 'stating facts'. there are no facts, just billions of perceptions. i'll just say that his ego is very 'stubborn':}
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:43 PM
 
Location: SE Michigan
6,191 posts, read 15,854,873 times
Reputation: 10268
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjay View Post
i know. i guess everybody's gotta do what they gotta do:}

i was a little irritated how he keeps saying he's 'stating facts'. there are no facts, just billions of perceptions. i'll just say that his ego is very 'stubborn':}
I know. I went around and around with this individual about a year ago and got so irritated that I've steered clear ever since....until this thread and my bad, sorry.
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