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The policies of those who idolize the free market gave us the Great Depression. More recently, they have given us a world in which top executives in the US make 400x what their workers make, and millions in the developing world try to survive on $2 a day. Are we really going to talk about people getting paid "what they are worth"? God have mercy on us all.
Yes, we're right on the precipice of another depression.
The world has never been richer and it gets better every year. I just don't see any evidence for this gloom-and-doom nonsense.
I care about how well my needs are met, not how close my salary is to a CEO. I'm not envious of what others have. I know for a fact that I live better than 99% of humans down through history. The fact that Bill Gates has more money than me doesn't cause me to lose sleep. I'm neither greedy nor envious, so save the class envy nonsense. That's for losers.
The fact that uneducated types can even make that much nowadays regardless of whether they have to be an apprentice or whatever (which is not always the case...I've seen many blue-collar union & non-union jobs in Michigan that START people $20/hr or HIGHER) is besides the point. The way it should be is smart people make money, blue collar worker bees settle for little until they learn to get a better a education.
Otherwise, what's the incentive to even go to school?
This last point is excellent. A poll in the Freep last year showed an appallingly low number of metro Detroiters put a high value on a college education. Unionism has until now made education the path of fools. Why go to school and miss out on prime wage-earning years? Why delay your retirement in your early 50s?
So now our union-heavy economy is going down the drain and we're left with a bunch of people who don't realize that having a college education is important. It's pathetic.
If people can't see the problem with the line workers with no college earning more than the engineers with advanced degrees who designed the cars, then there is no hope.
The fact that uneducated types can even make that much nowadays regardless of whether they have to be an apprentice or whatever (which is not always the case...I've seen many blue-collar union & non-union jobs in Michigan that START people $20/hr or HIGHER) is besides the point. The way it should be is smart people make money, blue collar worker bees settle for little until they learn to get a better a education.
Otherwise, what's the incentive to even go to school?
The fact that you are type casting these people is ignorant and couldn't be further from the truth. If people that chose to go to college don't make $20 or more an hour, then they should have chosen a career that pays them that much. That's their fault. I know a skilled trades worker who uses the good money he makes to send his 2 CHILDREN to college. They are both now in the process of earning their masters degree. I don't think the chip on your shoulder isn't how much union workers make in general, but how much they make compared to you personally. Maybe you don't make that much and you feel you should? I don't know, maybe you should have decided on a better career choice? You can't eliminate the middle man. Someone has to make the cars, work in the stores, cement roads, etc. Someone had to build the house you live in, build the car you drive and pour the cement you drive on. If people couldn't make a living doing these things, they would never get done. If you pay people good, you get a good product. If you pay people crappy, you get crap. Working in shops and plants is hard. If you get mad at how much union workers make out of college, I couldn't imagine how much it irritates you to see how much Lebron James made right out of high school. Now there is someone who is not college educated and living the dream.
Yes, we're right on the precipice of another depression.
The world has never been richer and it gets better every year. I just don't see any evidence for this gloom-and-doom nonsense.
I care about how well my needs are met, not how close my salary is to a CEO. I'm not envious of what others have. I know for a fact that I live better than 99% of humans down through history. The fact that Bill Gates has more money than me doesn't cause me to lose sleep. I'm neither greedy nor envious, so save the class envy nonsense. That's for losers.
I live better than the other 99%, too, as do many who post on this forum. But some of us give a d*** about the other 99% while others, apparently, do not.
I never said that we were on the brink of another depression, but who knows? Things seemed to be going great in 1928 (except for farmers and industrial workers). Huge disparities in wealth are destabilizing in many ways. "The world" isn't getting richer--a small economic elite is getting richer.
The politics of envy is no more moral than the politics of greed. But the workers didn't start the class war that's been going on for the past few decades. From around 1932-1972 the gap between the rich and poor was shrinking. Since 1982 it has been growing.
"So what," you say, "I got mine." Well, good for you. But let's look at how this affects ordinary people. It now takes two full-time wage earners to support a lifestyle that formerly required only one. What happens to kids when both parents work 40-60 hrs and don't have time for them? And what happens to parents who lose their partner due to divorce or death? How are they supposed to keep their head above water when prices are set for a median income level that they now can't possibly attain? What happens to workers whose jobs are lost due to technological change or globalization? How are they supposed to get retrained when the cost of postsecondary education has been rising faster than inflation for at least the past 20 years? Do I even have to talk about health care or childcare costs before you get the picture? The middle class is getting squeezed out of existence, and the ladders that used to allow the poor to get to the middle class are being pulled up.
And let's take a look at what the wealthy have been doing with all the extra $$ that Reagan and Gingrich and the Bushes threw at them. Have they invested it in enterprises that make jobs? Some, but not good jobs. A lot of it has been invested overseas. Some of it has gone up in smoke in speculative bubbles in securities and real estate ("too much money chasing too few stocks", as one economist put it). And a lot is going for corrupt purposes: financial scandals, political bribes, etc. The 2008 election is on track to be the most expensive ever. Maybe if more of the money were diverted toward real human needs, there would be less available for these corrupt purposes.
I don't want Gates's money, but nobody should have to get a handout from Gates in order to get decent health care or education. We need to get our priorities straight as a society. We need to make sure that every child gets what he or she needs to succed in this society and make a positive contribution, and we need to pay for it. The US incarcerates more of its population than any other developed nation, and also has the greatest gap between the rich and the poor. Instead of paying $30k/person/year to keep people in jail, why don't we invest a few thousand more in their education, so that they can function in the modern workplace and stay out of jail in the first place? After we take care of what's important, then the Bill Gateses and Sam Waltons and whoever else wants to can compete for what's left over.
The fact that you are type casting these people is ignorant and couldn't be further from the truth. If people that chose to go to college don't make $20 or more an hour, then they should have chosen a career that pays them that much. That's their fault. I know a skilled trades worker who uses the good money he makes to send his 2 CHILDREN to college. They are both now in the process of earning their masters degree. I don't think the chip on your shoulder isn't how much union workers make in general, but how much they make compared to you personally. Maybe you don't make that much and you feel you should? I don't know, maybe you should have decided on a better career choice? You can't eliminate the middle man. Someone has to make the cars, work in the stores, cement roads, etc. Someone had to build the house you live in, build the car you drive and pour the cement you drive on. If people couldn't make a living doing these things, they would never get done. If you pay people good, you get a good product. If you pay people crappy, you get crap. Working in shops and plants is hard. If you get mad at how much union workers make out of college, I couldn't imagine how much it irritates you to see how much Lebron James made right out of high school. Now there is someone who is not college educated and living the dream.
If people with college degrees can't make $20/hr....that's THEIR fault? WTF?
But then you say people w/o college educations who make $20+/hr. deserve it because they have to do "hard" jobs where their hands get dirty.
While I do think people who do road work, construction, etc. should be able to make a LIVEABLE wage, there's no reason why these people who can be ANYONE off the street (oh, gee, you have to job shadow some union guy or "experienced" worker for a couple weeks or months to get "qualified" to work at a place? That's tough ) are making more than people who have invested the time and energy into learning and developing a REAL career path.
And as for Lebron James? He's ONE guy out of 300 million in this country. So what if he makes a bunch of money - sports people and celebrities are about the most useless inviduals in the US and should never be used in the same sentence with "normal" people.
Now you can try and play that "Well, you should have done so-in-so in college" but that is just a stupid attempt at addressing the real issue altogether. YES, I wouldn't expect a grad who got a generic degree in Liberal Arts to be making $40k/yr. right out of college. But if that Liberal Arts grad was going up for a job against a mere HS graduate the grad should not only GET the job hands down but he should be making far more than that non-grad worker ever could.
People like to forget that college isn't just about getting your specific degree. It is meant to expose workers to different ideas and social interactions and problem solving that most likely would never be addressed in a "work your way up" career track for non-grads. It also is supposed to show employers that you can stick with things (college is no easy task that can be done in 6 months. Bachelor's, Master's & Doctorate programs take a LOT of time over many years to earn) and can adapt to different learning styles, situations, etc.
If you can HONESTLY say that non-college educated people DESERVE to make more than college grads in general across the board because they get their hands dirty (boo friggin' hoo), then maybe you should consider going to school and using that noggin' of yours again.
If people with college degrees can't make $20/hr....that's THEIR fault? WTF?
But then you say people w/o college educations who make $20+/hr. deserve it because they have to do "hard" jobs where their hands get dirty.
While I do think people who do road work, construction, etc. should be able to make a LIVEABLE wage, there's no reason why these people who can be ANYONE off the street (oh, gee, you have to job shadow some union guy or "experienced" worker for a couple weeks or months to get "qualified" to work at a place? That's tough ) are making more than people who have invested the time and energy into learning and developing a REAL career path.
And as for Lebron James? He's ONE guy out of 300 million in this country. So what if he makes a bunch of money - sports people and celebrities are about the most useless inviduals in the US and should never be used in the same sentence with "normal" people.
Now you can try and play that "Well, you should have done so-in-so in college" but that is just a stupid attempt at addressing the real issue altogether. YES, I wouldn't expect a grad who got a generic degree in Liberal Arts to be making $40k/yr. right out of college. But if that Liberal Arts grad was going up for a job against a mere HS graduate the grad should not only GET the job hands down but he should be making far more than that non-grad worker ever could.
People like to forget that college isn't just about getting your specific degree. It is meant to expose workers to different ideas and social interactions and problem solving that most likely would never be addressed in a "work your way up" career track for non-grads. It also is supposed to show employers that you can stick with things (college is no easy task that can be done in 6 months. Bachelor's, Master's & Doctorate programs take a LOT of time over many years to earn) and can adapt to different learning styles, situations, etc.
If you can HONESTLY say that non-college educated people DESERVE to make more than college grads in general across the board because they get their hands dirty (boo friggin' hoo), then maybe you should consider going to school and using that noggin' of yours again.
People should get paid according to the skill level that they bring to the table, and how readily available that skilled worker is in the marketplace. There are many skilled trades (non college-degree) that are very highly paid because they are relatively scarce. Although they may not require a college degree, the "barriers of entry" are very large (it takes a long time to get very good at it). Or the work is undesirable or dangerous so it is hard to find workers, thus the employer has to pay more.
It used to be that a worker with a Bachelor's degree was a very small percentage of the population. Now that more and more people are getting them, the investment into a college degree brings less and less of a return on investment. Labor is just like anything else in the marketplace. An oversaturation of a particular segment of the workforce (business majors for instance) brings wages down for those workers. You're only worth a certain wage if there is a NEED for your services, and what you bring is a scarce skill.
If you don't want a unionized workforce, then you have to be ready to subject your employment/career future to the full brunt force of the marketplace. And right now, you apparently have a commodity that very few employers need.
Personally, I have a bachelors degree and I have worked "in the trenches" getting my hands dirty. The two are not really apples to oranges, but generally college was a breeze compared to real back-breaking work.
I realize location, demand and saturation affect everyone's chances of landing a great paying job but the thing that irks me the most about this "Union" talk is that unions DON'T exist everywhere. It's not like my Dad, who was a blue collar worker his whole life, had the chance to be in a union once he was away from the Detroit area. Unions only helped a select few people in certain areas of the state yet those wages dictated everyone's else's in a ripple effect sort of way.
If every non-degree requiring job was a union-based one, I don't think we'd have this disussion. But as it stands right now, in my head anyways, here's the breakdown starting with lowest paid to highest paid (in general and in terms of $$$ and benefits, retirement plans, starting pay, etc.)
1) Welfare People / High School Degree workers (Welfare People can actually earn a lot for doing nothing, thanks to Uncle Sam)
2) Blue Collar Workers w/o degrees in non-union jobs
3) Bachelor's Degree earning workers in non-Medical/Engineering related fields
4) Union workers
5) Master's Degree earning workers
6) Business Owners
7) Doctorate Degree earning workers
So really, Union workers still to this day have it better than MOST of the workforce. That's why companies hate them yet they don't get rid of them because they keep clinging to that old business model.
As one poster said earlier, it's totally ridiculous to have the person making the car making more than the guy who designed it.
How would you like it if the construction guy working on your house could actually afford a better one than yours, and you are way smarter and more talented than him? It's not about being mean or cutthroat, it's about the system (in Michigan especially) totally f$#&ing educated workers.
I realize location, demand and saturation affect everyone's chances of landing a great paying job but the thing that irks me the most about this "Union" talk is that unions DON'T exist everywhere. It's not like my Dad, who was a blue collar worker his whole life, had the chance to be in a union once he was away from the Detroit area. Unions only helped a select few people in certain areas of the state yet those wages dictated everyone's else's in a ripple effect sort of way.
If every non-degree requiring job was a union-based one, I don't think we'd have this disussion. But as it stands right now, in my head anyways, here's the breakdown starting with lowest paid to highest paid (in general and in terms of $$$ and benefits, retirement plans, starting pay, etc.)
1) Welfare People / High School Degree workers (Welfare People can actually earn a lot for doing nothing, thanks to Uncle Sam)
2) Blue Collar Workers w/o degrees in non-union jobs
3) Bachelor's Degree earning workers in non-Medical/Engineering related fields
4) Union workers
5) Master's Degree earning workers
6) Business Owners
7) Doctorate Degree earning workers
So really, Union workers still to this day have it better than MOST of the workforce. That's why companies hate them yet they don't get rid of them because they keep clinging to that old business model.
As one poster said earlier, it's totally ridiculous to have the person making the car making more than the guy who designed it.
How would you like it if the construction guy working on your house could actually afford a better one than yours, and you are way smarter and more talented than him? It's not about being mean or cutthroat, it's about the system (in Michigan especially) totally f$#&ing educated workers.
First of all, I don't know if I am way smarter and more talented than him. Just because he roofs houses and I work in an office and have a degree doesn't make me smarter than him.
Second of all, if he roofs houses for 60 hours a week, in the heat, rain, snow, whatever, and by doing that he makes more than me, more power to him. I know for a fact it is a job I would not want to do, and that's why he makes good money.
You seem to be lumping all blue collar workers in with union workers. And I'm not even sure why you are lambasting union workers. The markets are now working against them, their numbers are dwindling rapidly, their pay is being cut, they're being paid off to retire, manufacturers are setting up in "right to works" states, and on and on. You've come to the party too late IMO, and what you want to happen has already been happening for at least a decade.
Considering that no matter how "service oriented" the world becomes, 75 - 80% of the population will not be needed for professional service level jobs, and will not need a 4 year degree to do their job. I find is strange that you think such a large chunk of the human race is expendable and stupid.
Good luck.
Last edited by Marka; 08-12-2007 at 06:19 AM..
Reason: edited quote
i also agree that newt gingirch would do this state good.
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