U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-02-2011, 09:52 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,622,254 times
Reputation: 4404

Advertisements

Question for EastBoundAndDownChick:

If you are generally liberal, but believe in living within our means... who in the heck do you VOTE for? With the exception of a few, most "liberal" politicians do not share your common-sense views towards our nation's financial situation. Many Democrats complain that the stimulus package didn't work because it was "too small." And Republicans at least attempt to be the party that promotes living within our means (not that they always do... GW Bush spent us into oblivion). But they aren't going to share your disdain for large corporations (neither do I) or your passion for green living. So you basically have very few politicians who share your mix of views. What's a voter to do? I'm hoping that you don't just vote for Democrats by default because they are "liberal." Because the average Democrat is not helping the issues you listed above much more than the average Republican.

Let me also say that I like a LOT of what is in your post. I think you are definitely on to something. My view of banks and businesses is much warmer than yours, but I tend to think of those things in terms of a local bank that is based in Grand Rapids, or my grandpa's business that employed about 200 people. I also think it's important to consider the role that our own government plays in promoting a boom and bust cycle. The Federal Reserve needs serious scrutiny in that department. I question whether Wall Street could have ever gotten so out of control without the easy-money, perpetual boom policies that the Federal Reserve promotes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,870 posts, read 17,737,702 times
Reputation: 3828
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
Question for EastBoundAndDownChick:

If you are generally liberal, but believe in living within our means... who in the heck do you VOTE for? With the exception of a few, most "liberal" politicians do not share your common-sense views towards our nation's financial situation. Many Democrats complain that the stimulus package didn't work because it was "too small." And Republicans at least attempt to be the party that promotes living within our means (not that they always do... GW Bush spent us into oblivion). But they aren't going to share your disdain for large corporations (neither do I) or your passion for green living. So you basically have very few politicians who share your mix of views. What's a voter to do? I'm hoping that you don't just vote for Democrats by default because they are "liberal." Because the average Democrat is not helping the issues you listed above much more than the average Republican.

Let me also say that I like a LOT of what is in your post. I think you are definitely on to something. My view of banks and businesses is much warmer than yours, but I tend to think of those things in terms of a local bank that is based in Grand Rapids, or my grandpa's business that employed about 200 people. I also think it's important to consider the role that our own government plays in promoting a boom and bust cycle. The Federal Reserve needs serious scrutiny in that department. I question whether Wall Street could have ever gotten so out of control without the easy-money, perpetual boom policies that the Federal Reserve promotes.
The Republicans have you fooled into believing that they are for fiscal responsibility. And neither do the Democrats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,870 posts, read 17,737,702 times
Reputation: 3828
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Michigan has an image problem.

Even though it's one of the nation's most beautiful states, most people think only of rusted-out factories and decaying cities when they think of Michigan. We're "Midwest" and "Rust Belt." That image is hard to shake. "Rust Belt" is a loser -- no one wants to move to a place with that label. What's more, it is hard to attract new industry to a place seen as decaying "Rust Belt," which many people see as backwards, ignorant, undiverse and dead. Michigan is a place that people move FROM, not one that people move TO. College graduates and educated, experienced professionals are leaving the state in droves.

This is a problem that we need to fix, and I really don't think encouraging more automotive manufacturing activity is going to fix that problem. Michigan needs a makeover, a rebranding. One huge part of that is attracting industries other than manufacturing to the state. I'm not saying eliminate the automotive industry, I'm saying add other industries, particularly ones that can't be outsourced. All it takes is one oil spike, major hurricane or fuel shortage and the auto industry is dead and thousands of Michiganders are laid off. We can't put all of our eggs in one basket. Places that have truly strong economies (NY, Chicago, Texas, Massachusetts, Toronto, Montreal, Seattle) have a variety of industries, boomtowns (and busttowns) (Las Vegas, Orlando, Atlanta, Phoenix, Detroit) are known for one industry. The same thing that made Michigan boom in the 1940s and 1950s caused its downfall in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Industry diversity is a must for a strong economy.
Michigan has tried rebranding itself, many times. But frankly, you'll never change the East and West Coast media to look at the Great Lakes as anything but the rust belt. They're idiots, stuck in their little thought vacuums on the coasts.

Plus, there's not a lot of "large industry" attracting going on in the U.S. anymore, unless it's to chase 3rd world country wages in places like Tennessee, Mississipi and Alabama. The only exceptions are when massive amounts of tax credits are doled out (which Snyder and the current Republicans are doing away with).

The best way to diversify industry in Michigan is to be a diverse State. Small businesses and startups want skilled workers (of all nationalities and orientations), and creative and hassle free environments to work in. They also want to be around like-minded business owners in a "positive" community. They may not care what the "State" is doing as a whole, as long as the State doesn't get in their way and/or drag them down.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-02-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,622,254 times
Reputation: 4404
Quote:
The Republicans have you fooled into believing that they are for fiscal responsibility. And neither do the Democrats.
Sadly, I know that you are right. I guess I gravitate towards the party that at least TALKS a good game. But neither party actually does it. Fiscal responsibility doesn't make for a good campaign ad. "Bob Smith voted to cut your favorite program!" doesn't make for much of a rallying cry.

Quote:
Michigan has tried rebranding itself, many times. But frankly, you'll never change the East and West Coast media to look at the Great Lakes as anything but the rust belt. They're idiots, stuck in their little thought vacuums on the coasts.
This is true. People from the coasts generally don't learn the truth unless they are forced to (job transfer, relatives live here, came here for school, etc). I know people personally who are from the coasts but were pleasantly surprised by what they found in Michigan. But they don't come here unless some other circumstance leads them here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Santa Maria, CA
766 posts, read 1,446,100 times
Reputation: 651
Both "parties" suck. Conservatives are for fiscal responsibility -- if you want that vote for a conservative. Conservative Democrats are a dying breed though -- the party did a pretty good job of purging them the last decade. There's a mix of views in the Republican party yet -- a lot of the Republicans aren't really conservative. That's why the tea party exists -- it's a push for fiscal responsibility.

GW really hurt the Republican party with his seemingly endless spending spree (encouraged by the Democratic Congress) but Obama spent more in his term than GW did in two terms. If we didn't have enough problems with 2 wars, Obama gets us into a third with Libya. If the unfunded Medicare prescription drug program wasn't bad enough, Obama gives us Obamacare. The price of gas has doubled, the unemployment rate is 9%, inflation is rampant (despite what the government tells us). The government is funding our spending by simply printing money. This recession is not over. Nothing has fundamentally changed for the better since 2008. The answer to a spending problem is not more spending. Get ready for the double dip. That's why MI shouldn't be happy.






Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
The Republicans have you fooled into believing that they are for fiscal responsibility. And neither do the Democrats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:40 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,583,753 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
THIS!!!! I'm also childfree-by-choice, and I totally agree with you about the McMansions. I wasn't even talking about families who spend beyond their means, I was just talking about families in general, especially single parents. $14 per hour is $29,120 per year, and that's before taxes. Assuming an unmarried person has two children and a $550/month housing (mortgage or rent) payment, it would still be very tough to pay for the basics such as food (for three), gas (for transportation to/from work) and clothing. That isn't even factoring in other possible expenses such as student loans (if any), car repair, medical emergencies, etc. This family may be able to squeeze by on the $14 per hour salary, but it would be VERY tough. More than likely, they would end up on food stamps or some other form of government aid. And before you scream "irresponsible unmarried parents!!!," keep in mind that many single parents are that way due to factors beyond their control -- the death of a spouse, domestic violence, even rape.



No arguments here. I could absolutely survive on $29,120 per year (I've done it with far less), but I'm single, childfree, have minimal debt and live a very frugal lifestyle. Wall Street and the big corporations are sucking us dry, and we're just sitting back and taking it.

The problem with this theory overall can be summed up by what is known in economics as the Paradox of Thrift. Frugality has its consquences when exercised in mass. Its a good way to kill an economy if the economy has been profligate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:54 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 24,761,383 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
The problem with this theory overall can be summed up by what is known in economics as the Paradox of Thrift. Frugality has its consquences when exercised in mass. Its a good way to kill an economy if the economy has been profligate.

And the opposite is oppression and servitude via credit and debt?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 10:14 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,583,753 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
And the opposite is oppression and servitude via credit and debt?
Thats true.....the reality is that this nation, for the last 50 years, have been run worse than the city of Detroit has by its leaders. The difference is that Detroit does not have the ability to print money or use the Central Bank to issue credit/money every time the city had fiscal issues or the ability to accru debts from fiscal over spending.

Our economy has grown because of debt and money creation (which go hand in hand) the last 30 or so years (going off the gold standard is when it started). Now......things cannot be brought back to equilibrium without a severe reduction in our standard of living. We are living way over our means but the only way to resolve that is through economic collapse.

There is no balancing of the books without first having an economic collapse. Every dollar spent is a dollor of revenue or income for another entity in our economy. If the government is talking about reducing the debt by trillions of dollars, but cutting spending or raising taxes, trillions in revenue and income will be sucked from the economy. Getting the US fiscal house in order can not be achieved without economic collapse......and most people caught up in left right politics don't even realize this.

The golden rule is that MODERATION is the key to life........but capitalism creates EXTREMIST.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Lansing, MI
2,951 posts, read 6,288,352 times
Reputation: 3257
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
And the opposite is oppression and servitude via credit and debt?
Debt and credit is an extreme opposite.

I don't know as I completely agree with Paradox of Thrift theory, but it makes sense to a point. If people continue to not spend money, the demand for services or products decreases.

There is a difference between spending a healthy amount and over spending. People who live beyond their means, run up credit cards to have luxuries they otherwise cannot afford is too extreme to sustain.

If working and low middle class households have a low enough cost of living so that they do have spending cash to recirculate, then the economy will hold. There is a higher percentage of working and lower middle class than there is upper class, and keeping spending money in the hands of the higher percentage will result in more impact to the economy. Sucking all lower classes dry by putting the burden of taxes and debt, high unemployment or higher cost of living on the lower incomes is what inspires people to be thrift, conserve spending habits and save.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 10:45 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,583,753 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by chance2jump View Post

If working and low middle class households have a low enough cost of living so that they do have spending cash to recirculate, then the economy will hold. There is a higher percentage of working and lower middle class than there is upper class, and keeping spending money in the hands of the higher percentage will result in more impact to the economy. Sucking all lower classes dry by putting the burden of taxes and debt, high unemployment or higher cost of living on the lower incomes is what inspires people to be thrift, conserve spending habits and save.
Ahhhh...but the upper class, although smaller in numerical percentage (in people), are greater in total percentage of national income. In other words, the rich, although a small percentage of the total population, has most of the income and wealth of the nation. The top quintile has about 60% of the income and wealth of the nation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top