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Old 06-03-2011, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,870 posts, read 17,737,702 times
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Maybe we can't be happy in Michigan because we over-analyze everything.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:55 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,622,254 times
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Quote:
There is no balancing of the books without first having an economic collapse. Every dollar spent is a dollor of revenue or income for another entity in our economy. If the government is talking about reducing the debt by trillions of dollars, but cutting spending or raising taxes, trillions in revenue and income will be sucked from the economy. Getting the US fiscal house in order can not be achieved without economic collapse......and most people caught up in left right politics don't even realize this.

The golden rule is that MODERATION is the key to life........but capitalism creates EXTREMIST.
Right...

So we can either jump into "frugality mode," which would collapse the economy. Or we can keep spending money that we don't have due to a Keynesian fear of the Paradox of Thrift. Which will devalue our currency and lead to a different type of disastrous economic collapse.

Neither of these sound like fun options. But I think I would rather take my chances with the Paradox of Thrift. My gut tells me that it HAS to be better to solve an over-consumption problem by cutting back, rather than continuing to over-consume. You can throw all of the economic theory and science at me that you want. But I refuse to believe that the answer to our problems is to spend more.

My gut feeling on Keynesian theory is that it is WAY too convenient for politicians. Doesn't it seem like the perfect answer for a politician that fears being kicked out of office? "I can solve all of our problems by spending more! I don't have to cut anything. In fact, I can give everyone freebies! Economic crisis solved!" I'm sorry, but it seems way too easy. And way too convenient.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:05 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,583,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
Right...

So we can either jump into "frugality mode," which would collapse the economy. Or we can keep spending money that we don't have due to a Keynesian fear of the Paradox of Thrift. Which will devalue our currency and lead to a different type of disastrous economic collapse.

Neither of these sound like fun options. But I think I would rather take my chances with the Paradox of Thrift. My gut tells me that it HAS to be better to solve an over-consumption problem by cutting back, rather than continuing to over-consume. You can throw all of the economic theory and science at me that you want. But I refuse to believe that the answer to our problems is to spend more.

My gut feeling on Keynesian theory is that it is WAY too convenient for politicians. Doesn't it seem like the perfect answer for a politician that fears being kicked out of office? "I can solve all of our problems by spending more! I don't have to cut anything. In fact, I can give everyone freebies! Economic crisis solved!" I'm sorry, but it seems way too easy. And way too convenient.
I am not offering a suggestion of what people should do. What I find, in reading forums like these, is that people think the answer or problem is related to left or right politics. So what I am saying is that there is no solution that does not involve an economic collapse.... FIRST. Now, economic collapse does not mean the total destruction of our economy (or it should not). It just means our standard of living will be radically reduced either by inflation, job losses or both. There is no political solution to the mess we are in. However, the collapse will cause a political collapse as well because when people realize that neither party has the answer and that both parties are the problem.....there will be a revolution in the streets....which could then make the economic situation worse than it need be structurally. I don't think the average person has a clue of how close we are to a very, very epic sitution.

If we take austerity measures.......or the RESPONSIBLE choice, it will have a negative chain reaction that will lead to the same result as continuing IRRESPONSIBLE spending. We really dug ourselves into a hole. Now its damned if you do damned if you don't.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:07 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,622,254 times
Reputation: 4404
Quote:
I am not offering a suggestion of what people should do. What I find, in reading forums like these, is that people think the answer or problem is related to left or right politics. So what I am saying is that there is no solution that does not involve an economic collapse. Now, economic collapse does not mean the total destruction of our economy (or it should not). It just means our standard of living will be radically reduced either by inflation, job losses or both. There is no political solution to the mess we are in. However, the collapse will cause a political collapse as well because when people realize that neither party has the answer and that both parties are the problem.....there will be a revolution in the streets....which could then make the economic situation worse than it need be structurally.
Upon further review, I think we are basically in the same ballpark on this topic.
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:29 PM
 
1,745 posts, read 2,208,330 times
Reputation: 3678
Well, you certainly can't blame people for not wanting to go out and spend. It would be foolish in this climate. That's why I myself don't do it, while I was spending quite freely a few years back. I've adjusted my lifestyle so I have no credit card bills. To be honest, the enjoyment that comes with that is far better than whatever short-lived enjoyment I would have gotten on a new iPad, or salon treatment, or fancy night on the town. I think others are coming to that realization. I don't blame any of them. I believe we'd open up our wallets and spend more easily if bankers were clearer with their terms and didn't charge such insane interest rates. But when Macy's (just an example) is charging a 21% annual interest rate, 29+% if you default... no nice outfit is worth that stress. I'm happier just shopping on Ebay and at Target and throwing the few extra hundred I save in the bank. My feeling is that if we need consumer spending to sustain an economy it wasn't much of an economy to begin with. Real wealth comes with manufacturing on-shore and solid trade and tax policies. Not how much you spend on an IKEA shopping trip. Impose some sort of order and logical regulation on the banks, make it illegal for corporations to spread easy money to Washington, fix up that mess we call NAFTA. Those are REAL solutions. Asking the middle class to go out shopping is an insult to the regular working person in this country.

Last edited by EastBoundandDownChick; 06-05-2011 at 11:43 PM..
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Ocqueoc, MI - Extreme N.E. Lower Peninsula
275 posts, read 394,179 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastBoundandDownChick View Post
Well, you certainly can't blame people for not wanting to go out and spend. It would be foolish in this climate. That's why I myself don't do it, while I was spending quite freely a few years back. I've adjusted my lifestyle so I have no credit card bills. To be honest, the enjoyment that comes with that is far better than whatever short-lived enjoyment I would have gotten on a new iPad, or salon treatment, or fancy night on the town. I think others are coming to that realization. I don't blame any of them. I believe we'd open up our wallets and spend more easily if bankers were clearer with their terms and didn't charge such insane interest rates. But when Macy's (just an example) is charging a 21% annual interest rate, 29+% if you default... no nice outfit is worth that stress. I'm happier just shopping on Ebay and at Target and throwing the few extra hundred I save in the bank. My feeling is that if we need consumer spending to sustain an economy it wasn't much of an economy to begin with. Real wealth comes with manufacturing on-shore and solid trade and tax policies. Not how much you spend on an IKEA shopping trip. Impose some sort of order and logical regulation on the banks, make it illegal for corporations to spread easy money to Washington, fix up that mess we call NAFTA. Those are REAL solutions. Asking the middle class to go out shopping is an insult to the regular working person in this country.
We've gone down the same road. I can't help but laugh and scratch my head, when the most typically publicized answer for fixing the economy is for individuals to be fiscally irresponsible.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,095 posts, read 5,622,254 times
Reputation: 4404
Quote:
We've gone down the same road. I can't help but laugh and scratch my head, when the most typically publicized answer for fixing the economy is for individuals to be fiscally irresponsible.
Amen!

If spending money that we don't have = good economy, then we are better off having a bad economy.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:47 AM
 
1,745 posts, read 2,208,330 times
Reputation: 3678
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
Amen!

If spending money that we don't have = good economy, then we are better off having a bad economy.
Amen to that.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Loving life in Gaylord!
4,121 posts, read 7,948,839 times
Reputation: 3895
The 11 States Where Unemployment Is Dropping The Fastest
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,870 posts, read 17,737,702 times
Reputation: 3828
Quote:
Originally Posted by michmoldman View Post
Latest unemployment stats from BLS by city (April 2011):

Lansing/East Lansing: 7.6%
Grand Rapids/Wyoming: 8.1%
Ann Arbor: 6.2%
Kalamazoo/Portage: 8.2%
Holland/Grand Haven: 8.1%
Saginaw: 9.4%

U.S.: 9.0

Boooommmm!
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