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Old 01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,632 posts, read 14,224,026 times
Reputation: 2777

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
It's probably not wise to advertise that you're a tax cheat on the boards or when you do business. Sorry but I don't have any sympathy for you being taxed on your income (even if it is pension income). I'm taxed on my income and very few people these days get any pension when they retire. Be glad that you even have a pension when you pay the $67/mo and report your other income like everybody else has to do. Any of these cash "discounts" is taking the job from legitimate businesses and cheats the government out of revenue it should be getting. If you ever get caught, you'll wish you had done things the right way.
Sorry, but you have no idea how large the underground economy is. This is nothing new, and, its not actually " cheating as you say". many people trade for services and materials.The barter system grows larger every day. What about Ebay? Do you think most people report their income from that( unless you are a Ebay Store) Then there are flea markets, gun and knife shows, the list goes on.... We should NOT be taxed on our retirement income period.Many of us do not get a " pension" or not anymore,since so many went broke. You must rely on your own ability to survive. Without medicare, I do not know what I would do. My co-pay this year was 20,000....I hate to think what the actual cost was. My bill at Mayo was 500,000 last year, and I only had a tonsil operation.
Now, the remarks about the old decaying cities in Michigan. face it, these places were built up by the Auto Industry and European immigrants. It is time to renew, downsize and start anew with modern infrastructures, green, cost saving measures. There are way too many old homes, that are wasting carbon producing too old to be practical. lets put the people to work, tearing down, and building new housing, and lets let these cities die a little, downsize, its time to get serious about what we are doing and not doing. Infrastructure is the big ticket item, that will employ many, and bring down the unemployment numbers. Its a waste to see houses that were abandoned in the 60s still sitting there in Detroit.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:28 PM
 
481 posts, read 854,461 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
It's probably not wise to advertise that you're a tax cheat on the boards or when you do business. Sorry but I don't have any sympathy for you being taxed on your income (even if it is pension income). I'm taxed on my income and very few people these days get any pension when they retire. Be glad that you even have a pension when you pay the $67/mo and report your other income like everybody else has to do. Any of these cash "discounts" is taking the job from legitimate businesses and cheats the government out of revenue it should be getting. If you ever get caught, you'll wish you had done things the right way.
I have mixed feelings about the pension tax since I get hit as well. I don't think raising taxes was a tactic that should have been used but it is what it is. I'm tempted to fudge on the "use tax" (for my purchases over the internet) because of it but that's just small change compared to what I'm getting hit monthly because of the new tax. I will probably pay it along with claiming ALL my outside income that I don't really have to report. I think it's a matter of integrity, even if I don't agree with most of what the government spends.

I do feel fortunate to be getting a pension in an age when few do so I'd rather have the tax on it than no pension at all.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:36 PM
 
481 posts, read 854,461 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by darstar View Post
Sorry, but you have no idea how large the underground economy is. This is nothing new, and, its not actually " cheating as you say". many people trade for services and materials.The barter system grows larger every day. What about Ebay? Do you think most people report their income from that( unless you are a Ebay Store) Then there are flea markets, gun and knife shows, the list goes on.... We should NOT be taxed on our retirement income period.Many of us do not get a " pension" or not anymore,since so many went broke. You must rely on your own ability to survive. Without medicare, I do not know what I would do. My co-pay this year was 20,000....I hate to think what the actual cost was. My bill at Mayo was 500,000 last year, and I only had a tonsil operation.
Now, the remarks about the old decaying cities in Michigan. face it, these places were built up by the Auto Industry and European immigrants. It is time to renew, downsize and start anew with modern infrastructures, green, cost saving measures. There are way too many old homes, that are wasting carbon producing too old to be practical. lets put the people to work, tearing down, and building new housing, and lets let these cities die a little, downsize, its time to get serious about what we are doing and not doing. Infrastructure is the big ticket item, that will employ many, and bring down the unemployment numbers. Its a waste to see houses that were abandoned in the 60s still sitting there in Detroit.
I don't know how you want to define cheating but it is breaking the law if you don't report taxable income. I can understand why people would do it but I'm not going to do it myself.

I agree with your plan for the cities but how in the world would it get funded, the tear-down, etc.? I don't think we can afford any government spending (especially with all these people not reporting their income and paying enough taxes :-)). The cities need to shrink in accordance with their populations.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Santa Maria, CA
766 posts, read 1,446,100 times
Reputation: 651
When cash is involved for goods/services, it's not bartering. If you're actually bartering, there's no tax consequence. Same basically goes for ebay since you had a good and are in theory just getting the same value in cash back for it -- it's not additional income unless you're operating as a store for profit. You could argue whether sales tax applies to cyberspace but if it's not collected by the seller, it'll never be reported by the buyer.

Retirement income is no different than non-retirement income. If it's not already been taxed, it's subject to income tax. That's fair but it's just not what you're used to. Why should there be an exemption just because you're retired? In my opinion, all exemptions should be eliminated creating a true flat tax. If that's beyond our politicians then create a federal sales tax.


With respect to your ideas about tearing down houses, it should be done but not for the reasons you're stating; we don't need to do anything green. I don't really know why cities like Detroit haven't imposed heavy fines on abandoned property so that the titles could be returned to the state and then the houses could be demolished. I suspect that the cities just don't have the money to do the deconstruction. Why have they let the criminal element take over entire sections of the city? Even if you were able to tear down all of the blight, how do you get rid of the humans who caused a lot of that blight? If they're not removed, you haven't solved the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darstar View Post
Sorry, but you have no idea how large the underground economy is. This is nothing new, and, its not actually " cheating as you say". many people trade for services and materials.The barter system grows larger every day. What about Ebay? Do you think most people report their income from that( unless you are a Ebay Store) Then there are flea markets, gun and knife shows, the list goes on.... We should NOT be taxed on our retirement income period.Many of us do not get a " pension" or not anymore,since so many went broke. You must rely on your own ability to survive. Without medicare, I do not know what I would do. My co-pay this year was 20,000....I hate to think what the actual cost was. My bill at Mayo was 500,000 last year, and I only had a tonsil operation.
Now, the remarks about the old decaying cities in Michigan. face it, these places were built up by the Auto Industry and European immigrants. It is time to renew, downsize and start anew with modern infrastructures, green, cost saving measures. There are way too many old homes, that are wasting carbon producing too old to be practical. lets put the people to work, tearing down, and building new housing, and lets let these cities die a little, downsize, its time to get serious about what we are doing and not doing. Infrastructure is the big ticket item, that will employ many, and bring down the unemployment numbers. Its a waste to see houses that were abandoned in the 60s still sitting there in Detroit.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:43 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,632 posts, read 14,224,026 times
Reputation: 2777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
When cash is involved for goods/services, it's not bartering. If you're actually bartering, there's no tax consequence. Same basically goes for ebay since you had a good and are in theory just getting the same value in cash back for it -- it's not additional income unless you're operating as a store for profit. You could argue whether sales tax applies to cyberspace but if it's not collected by the seller, it'll never be reported by the buyer.

Retirement income is no different than non-retirement income. If it's not already been taxed, it's subject to income tax. That's fair but it's just not what you're used to. Why should there be an exemption just because you're retired? In my opinion, all exemptions should be eliminated creating a true flat tax. If that's beyond our politicians then create a federal sales tax.


With respect to your ideas about tearing down houses, it should be done but not for the reasons you're stating; we don't need to do anything green. I don't really know why cities like Detroit haven't imposed heavy fines on abandoned property so that the titles could be returned to the state and then the houses could be demolished. I suspect that the cities just don't have the money to do the deconstruction. Why have they let the criminal element take over entire sections of the city? Even if you were able to tear down all of the blight, how do you get rid of the humans who caused a lot of that blight? If they're not removed, you haven't solved the problem.
If you sell something on Ebay that you bought long ago, I see no correct way to declare it " taxable income". Most of us sell things we do not need, and probably paid too much for them in the first place, than what we get on Ebay. The way I see it, there should be no tax on anything you buy on the Internet.If there was a Federal rule on this, it would always be unfair, depending on where you live.( Many states have no income tax) I also think there should not be any state tax ether. Just a flat Federal tax, based on your income. The wealthy need to pay more than they do, just like it used to be.
Why should retired people pay any income tax ?....In most cases we have already been taxed on the income we worked so long and for so many years to get to this point. I see any tax by State,City, as double taxation , that goes for being taxed again when we sell something, Federal or otherwise. Now, if someone very rich is retired, and they want to opt out of all Federal ,State,and city taxes and deductions, OK, that should be their choice,along with not receiving any benefits. I have known people who get food stamps, and they are millionaires
Now, Detroit, I lived there in the late 60s, just off the Southfield expressway, it was old then, I could not wait to get out !. It should not be that way. Detroit was the Automobile Capital for the World, yet, the city is always too broke to display their history. No Automobile history Museum.! Have you been to Ft. Dearborn and seen all the items,cars,etc, waiting to be displayed? Its a shame, an embarrassment, and all part of the infrastructure thing I have been talking about.Lets make Detroit shine again, encourage tourist, less crime, blight, and be proud of what has been accomplished this last 120 years. Not the stand still,forgotten areas, everyone wants to avoid, like the Packard Plant on East Grand..... I could go on, but I won't.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Michigan
105 posts, read 128,474 times
Reputation: 62
First off persons on fixed incomes can least afford a tax on a pention, money that can not be made up for with a cost of living raise or any thing else. I my self for years have reported the extra income I earned right down to the dividens on the stocks I held. I also paid for my medical cost above what the insurance I had upon retireing paid. When GM went bankrupt I lost $23,000 is stocks (acutal purchase price). that income when they paid dividens can not be made up either. When the company I worked for went bankrupt my health insurance became a huge joke with the high deductiable and copays.
My cost of living has in some cases increased 4 times what it was when I retired. In some cases only did it just double.
I could not afford to eat and pay property taxes on my home if I only had my pention to live on like some.
Thankfully many of my health problems are paid by all you good report all income to the goverment persons.
With the disiability I brought home with me from Veit Nam well over $300.00 per month worth of meds are provided by the VA.

I keep cutting stuff from my living expences but it seems like every time I cut a dollar I loose 3 dollars to some thing.
We never go out any more for some thing to different, like dinner and a movie. We no longer rent even 30 year old movies because we can't afford them. You would be surprized what can no longer be had to make life enjoyable.

Ya have to prove I made some extra to get me on tax fruad. Can't trace a check I didn't take, can't check bank accounts I never put money into. can't trace checks I wrote cause I never exced my pention spending with a check.

How much money in intrest that banks pay today can be lost with a couple thousands in a buryed PVC vault?

Raise my taxes and let the idel rich keep riding the gravey train.
Provide jobs my royal butt. those rich people many of whom are paying me cash.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,632 posts, read 14,224,026 times
Reputation: 2777
I had friends who worked in upper management at Chrysler . When they retired ( early), the smart thing to do was get all your retirement out of corporate hands as quickly as possible ! Boy were they right to reinvest in private and public traded securities with the funds they took out of Chrysler.! Sweet deal though, always had a new truck every year, and health plan that paid everything. Now, they are well long retired, actually quite wealthy, compared to me. I always worked for myself, never had any health, pensions, or other help, only my ability to survive. ( Wife still works). I am sure I had some great years, and felt I was eating high on the hog, while they were still suffering to climb the ladder.
Not sure which was the best way to go,looking back. I had my freedom, they had the last laugh in the end...or close too it, we are all still kicking !
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Santa Maria, CA
766 posts, read 1,446,100 times
Reputation: 651
Retired people are not special. If you're poor, you don't pay taxes otherwise you should be paying the same rate as everybody else on income -- it's as simple as that. Pension money has not been previously taxed. This isn't money that you contributed after tax. Too many retirees feel they are a privileged class since they get government money, free healthcare, and discounts at a lot of places simply for surviving to retirement. The thing is that they're the richest segment of the population when talking demographics.

If you know people who are millionaires getting food stamps, they should be reported to the government for fraud and sent to prison. The thing is that most of the government workers probably don't care about the fraud.

I guess I just see most of the current retirees as the beneficiaries of the biggest ponzi scheme in world history (Social Security) that I'm paying for but will never receive. In addition, they're the ones that are responsible for building the social welfare state that ultimately will lead to hyperinflation and the bankruptcy of the country. They're collecting pensions in addition to social security and expect those that'll probably receive neither to subsidize them further by exempting them from taxes. It's time to start help paying the tax bill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darstar View Post
The wealthy need to pay more than they do, just like it used to be.
Why should retired people pay any income tax ?....In most cases we have already been taxed on the income we worked so long and for so many years to get to this point. I see any tax by State,City, as double taxation , that goes for being taxed again when we sell something, Federal or otherwise. Now, if someone very rich is retired, and they want to opt out of all Federal ,State,and city taxes and deductions, OK, that should be their choice,along with not receiving any benefits. I have known people who get food stamps, and they are millionaires
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:18 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,632 posts, read 14,224,026 times
Reputation: 2777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
Retired people are not special. If you're poor, you don't pay taxes otherwise you should be paying the same rate as everybody else on income -- it's as simple as that. Pension money has not been previously taxed. This isn't money that you contributed after tax. Too many retirees feel they are a privileged class since they get government money, free healthcare, and discounts at a lot of places simply for surviving to retirement. The thing is that they're the richest segment of the population when talking demographics.

If you know people who are millionaires getting food stamps, they should be reported to the government for fraud and sent to prison. The thing is that most of the government workers probably don't care about the fraud.

I guess I just see most of the current retirees as the beneficiaries of the biggest ponzi scheme in world history (Social Security) that I'm paying for but will never receive. In addition, they're the ones that are responsible for building the social welfare state that ultimately will lead to hyperinflation and the bankruptcy of the country. They're collecting pensions in addition to social security and expect those that'll probably receive neither to subsidize them further by exempting them from taxes. It's time to start help paying the tax bill.
Aw but the rich do not ! I agree level the playing field. Furthermore regarding Social Security and retirement. I detect you are against us retired folks, cause you aren't one. Believe you me, I would be glad to turn back the clock and be younger. Retirement is not all it looks like, trust me.
Entitlements? , yes , we should get them, its part of living in a Country that is supposed to have compassion for taking care of those that have helped make this land a better place, fought our Wars, and paid into the system for many many years. You have it all wrong, sorry you do not understand how things work. Do you think all the tax collected on gasoline and diesel fuel goes to fix and maintain our roads ? No, It goes into General Revenue, and then its spent on pork barrel projects, lobbied by K street fat cats , you call that fair ?
WE are getting way off topic here, the blame goes to many before us, its just turned out that way. maybe the thread should be changed ?
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Michigan
105 posts, read 128,474 times
Reputation: 62
I should clairfyi who I call rich who pay me cash for the work I do.
Best customer is a man and wife who both teach college courses at Baker and Davanport. He is also retired managenent from GM but said he just about no longer gets any pention from them since he is earning above the except rate teaching so is docked. He also has to pay in a huge amount of money tward his healt insurance to GM, Last I talked to him back in Oct he was just going to drop it altogether.

I worked for a company who bought buy back cars/trucks and other lemon law protected stuff.
I mostly did the car/truck section of GM stuff since that is what we got the most of. There were 8 of us in 2001 In the Michigan branch when I retired. Once the problems were found and repaired the end product went to private auction houses across the country.'
When the sales of cars dropped All the American owned companys didn't see a reason to run the production lines at a high rate. Their fore the products got much better in quaility. I was told by a friend they lost 3/4 of the GM cars across the countrys 3 rebuild centers just before they declaired bankrupsy.

I sure Love all the nay sayers whoi claim they will not see a dime of SS when they retire. That doom and gloom has been preached since nearly the beginning.

A Many finicial advisers recommended buying stocks in the auto compines except American motors and Chrylser who American Motors went to.
Only Chrylser had adviser state they may not make it and will go bankrupt.

When the tax on the richest Americans is fair compaired to the lessed paid persons and they are not allowed to hide assets in off shore holdings,
When the subsitys the goverment pays to the richest Americans who own farm land and land that can not be farmed, When Michigan gets rid of the waste full two house system of goverment and those house member also take a 30% pay cut and are not allowed to give them selves raises, will I feel I am being taxed farily.

When they get rid of the old out dated electroil college system of electing the President will I feel I really did have a say in electing a president. When they outlaw campain funds being given to canidates by corprations and the filthy wealthy will I even start to think for the people by the people is a true statement.

King Richard is as some one esle pointed out a robin hood for the rich.
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