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Old 06-10-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Denver
2,970 posts, read 6,360,061 times
Reputation: 4828

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Well......you did not mention sports programs, you said "frivolous programs" and the programs that I mentioned --- known as "specials" in elementary schools and "electives" in high schools, along with supplemental support for special needs students, are exactly what will be first to go with Snyder's education cuts. He could give a crap about Michigan's public school students.

Last edited by HighlandsGal; 06-10-2011 at 10:28 AM.. Reason: added part about supplemental support
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Denver
2,970 posts, read 6,360,061 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
One question:

Do you think that a big increase in funding to GR Public Schools would suddenly turn it into a good school district?

I think we both know that the answer is no. The problems in GR Public go way deeper than per student funding. My sister did some teaching at GR Public, and she never complained about "lack of funding" that made her job difficult. What made her job difficult was that she had no control over the home lives of the students. She could only influence them for a few hours per day, but they would go home to environments that were not conducive to learning (or anything productive, really). This is terribly sad, but it's not a funding problem. Money is not the answer for our failing urban districts.
No I do not. However, I most certainly do NOT believe that cutting funding to GRPS or any public school district in MI will improve or even maintain the current quality of education either.

It's a shame the conservative media in Michigan is not covering this more.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:31 PM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,083 posts, read 34,941,531 times
Reputation: 16907
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandsGal View Post
Well......you did not mention sports programs, you said "frivolous programs" and the programs that I mentioned --- known as "specials" in elementary schools and "electives" in high schools, along with supplemental support for special needs students, are exactly what will be first to go with Snyder's education cuts. He could give a crap about Michigan's public school students.
How do you know what programs the individual school districts will cut, IF they need to cut programs? That isn't written in the cuts, that is the decision of each school board. To put forth such a blanket statement is just fear-mongering that is not based on ANYTHING other than conjecture.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,870 posts, read 17,737,702 times
Reputation: 3828
Quote:
Originally Posted by michmoldman View Post
For as tough of a job as he has, I think he is giving it a real...honest try. Not just trying to please one side or the other. I am very pleased so far, and dont forget....Michigan is in the top 2 for jobs gained so far. This may or may not be related directly...but it shows positive.
There is no way that the recent job growth is related to Snyder. It's almost entirely related to the rise in demand for American autos and the sliding demand for Japanese companies.

The things that business groups have been complaining about (the MBT particularly) haven't even taken effect yet.
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,119 posts, read 7,300,445 times
Reputation: 2056
Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
  1. Given a HUGE tax break to businesses, even larger than the tax increase extracted from the seniors, thus weakening the financial strength of the State even further.
Michigan is in a "race to the bottom" with 49 other states and perhaps even the world itself. This is just a sad fact and there's no way around it. Unfortunately, that means that Michigan will need to have a business climate that's better than that of most states in order to attract new industry and businesses. I suspect that Synder realizes that, as painful and as problematic as it might be.

Quote:
Cut the living day-lights out of educational spending, causing even more young people and families to leave the State.
Maybe it's time for us to question how much we value education beyond basic K-12 education. Ask yourself, what percentage of all jobs actually require or make real use of a college education? (Perhaps 10-15%.) How many real-world jobs require anything other than basic math skills? How many real-world jobs require writing skills and reading comprehension skills?

Do waitresses need a knowledge of science to do their jobs? Do they need anything beyond very basic reading comprehension, writing skills, and math? When was the last time a waitress needed to use calculus, algebra, or geometry on the job? When was the last time a waitress needed to compose an essay on the job?

What about Cashiers? Truck drivers? Plumbers? Grass cutters? Janitors? Sanitation workers? Factory workers? Shoe salesman? Heck, even police officers don't need to do much of that. Even retail shop managers don't need to do all that much beyond basic math and a little writing.

These are real-world jobs that the bulk of the working people do. So, does it make sense to spend a huge amount of money providing pristine educations for people when society doesn't really need it? Did you know that a huge amount of college graduates, perhaps as many as 17 million, work menial jobs that don't require college education? Even people with MBAs, law degrees, and science PhDs are unemployed or underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field. I've also read that as much as 85% of all new college grads move back in with their parents. Perhaps we're sending two or three times as many people to college as what our economy needs.

Of course, what I am saying challenges conventional wisdom and dogma, but it's an issue we need to begin thinking about--are we spending too much on education and do we need reform? Is it hurting us economically?

Why Did 17 Million Students Go to College? - Innovations - The Chronicle of Higher Education

http://www.centerforcollegeaffordabi...o_Wal-Mart.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/bu...l?pagewanted=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/bu...ning.html?_r=3

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science...nce-gap-16191/
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Ocqueoc, MI - Extreme N.E. Lower Peninsula
275 posts, read 394,179 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
Michigan is in a "race to the bottom" with 49 other states and perhaps even the world itself. This is just a sad fact and there's no way around it. Unfortunately, that means that Michigan will need to have a business climate that's better than that of most states in order to attract new industry and businesses. I suspect that Synder realizes that, as painful and as problematic as it might be.

Maybe it's time for us to question how much we value education beyond basic K-12 education. Ask yourself, what percentage of all jobs actually require or make real use of a college education? (Perhaps 10-15%.) How many real-world jobs require anything other than basic math skills? How many real-world jobs require writing skills and reading comprehension skills?

Do waitresses need a knowledge of science to do their jobs? Do they need anything beyond very basic reading comprehension, writing skills, and math? When was the last time a waitress needed to use calculus, algebra, or geometry on the job? When was the last time a waitress needed to compose an essay on the job?

What about Cashiers? Truck drivers? Plumbers? Grass cutters? Janitors? Sanitation workers? Factory workers? Shoe salesman? Heck, even police officers don't need to do much of that. Even retail shop managers don't need to do all that much beyond basic math and a little writing.

These are real-world jobs that the bulk of the working people do. So, does it make sense to spend a huge amount of money providing pristine educations for people when society doesn't really need it? Did you know that a huge amount of college graduates, perhaps as many as 17 million, work menial jobs that don't require college education? Even people with MBAs, law degrees, and science PhDs are unemployed or underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field. I've also read that as much as 85% of all new college grads move back in with their parents. Perhaps we're sending two or three times as many people to college as what our economy needs.

Of course, what I am saying challenges conventional wisdom and dogma, but it's an issue we need to begin thinking about--are we spending too much on education and do we need reform? Is it hurting us economically?

Why Did 17 Million Students Go to College? - Innovations - The Chronicle of Higher Education

http://www.centerforcollegeaffordabi...o_Wal-Mart.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/bu...l?pagewanted=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/bu...ning.html?_r=3

The Real Science Gap - Miller-McCune
Your post reminded me of something my Grandpa used to tell me. "If you want to go to college, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. Just remember, the world needs ditch diggers. Ain't one job more important than another. Whatever you do, do it in a way that makes you proud."
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,119 posts, read 7,300,445 times
Reputation: 2056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wojo View Post
Your post reminded me of something my Grandpa used to tell me. "If you want to go to college, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. Just remember, the world needs ditch diggers. Ain't one job more important than another. Whatever you do, do it in a way that makes you proud."
I agree. Many people would be better off learning a skilled trade and shipping out to areas where blue collar laborers are needed (such as the booming oil and natural gas fields). The competition for white collar jobs and the amount of effort needed to obtain and retain them is such that you really do have to wonder whether or not college graduates end up getting ahead in terms of their after-tax and after-student-loan-payment wages per unit of effort expended. I think arbitrage is evening things out, to a great extent.

Eduction is a huge concern in this country. We are falling all over ourselves to try to educate all of our youth and to make them college ready. It's like we're preparing all of our K-12 students to run faster while failing to realize that regardless of how fast everyone runs, only a couple can win the race. I wonder if we might be better off spending less on K-12 education and more on infrastructure or lowering taxes. The push to have the best and brightest kids is even beginning at infancy now. Maybe we'd have richer lives if we just let kids be kids instead of trying to achieve vicariously through them.
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Old 06-11-2011, 08:33 PM
 
6,048 posts, read 7,364,920 times
Reputation: 3265
A college degree is not needed for the majority of jobs in the US. It is a political/ego thing only. Why someone needs a Master's degree in anything to send e-mails and do basic data entry work is beyond me, but that is what a lot of "educated" office worker types do. There used to be these people called "secretaries" who did that kind of work. Now you need a college degree to do the same tasks!
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,119 posts, read 7,300,445 times
Reputation: 2056
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
A college degree is not needed for the majority of jobs in the US. It is a political/ego thing only. Why someone needs a Master's degree in anything to send e-mails and do basic data entry work is beyond me, but that is what a lot of "educated" office worker types do. There used to be these people called "secretaries" who did that kind of work. Now you need a college degree to do the same tasks!
One term for this phenomena is "credential inflation".
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Santa Maria, CA
766 posts, read 1,446,100 times
Reputation: 651
College degrees are just an entry barrier for white-collar jobs. Most office jobs -- even very technical ones could be done by about anybody with a couple month's training (probably less).

This whole mantra that everybody that can should be going to college is just wrong. There are only so many positions so increasing the number of college graduates just increases the available labor pool and lowers employee wages. Too many graduates are finding they can't get a job related to their education and are unable to pay back the huge debt that they accumulated; bankruptcy isn't even an option. And since the labor pool is larger, requirement inflation has occurred. I'm seeing more Master degree requirements that used to be Bachelor's and Bachelor's that used to be high school diploma. Who is this helping besides the schools?

I think I'd rather be in the trades these days. No college debt and you get paid by the hour -- no salary BS where you're working unpaid hours. I think this was the theme of "Office Space" -- a classic movie that all office workers should see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
A college degree is not needed for the majority of jobs in the US. It is a political/ego thing only. Why someone needs a Master's degree in anything to send e-mails and do basic data entry work is beyond me, but that is what a lot of "educated" office worker types do. There used to be these people called "secretaries" who did that kind of work. Now you need a college degree to do the same tasks!
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