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Old 12-09-2012, 10:46 AM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,558,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
But why would the unions make these employees poorer by docking their wages? Maybe because it's not all about the workers...
Again, you cannot claim that unions make those workers poorer since you don't know going wages/hours of part-timers at union-less Kroeger. Neither you know work scheduling & conditions at union-less Kroeger.

I guess history doesn't teach us anything. Let's go back to the union-less 19th century and see what would happen. I more than sure that this time everything will be so much different and better.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:50 AM
 
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Uh, I know that the unions choose to garnish their wages while offering them zero representation.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:32 AM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,558,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Uh, I know that the unions choose to garnish their wages while offering them zero representation.
Representation is a part of benefits unions negotiate. Those are part-time workers? Again, we don't know whether or not Kroeger part timers benefit of unions in other ways. I know very well that some low wage retail workers dislike unions for some deep ingrained psychological reasons. Yup, I know $8.50/hr Wal-Mart workers who listen talk radio religiously and think that unions and big bad government are just a tad short of evil. Never mind the fact that big bad government makes their part time existence possible on $8.50/hr. Never mind the fact that Wall Mart is well aware of the union threat and treat their workers a tad better because of that threat.

Employers and right wing ideologues know very well what "the right to work" is all about. It means complete submission to owners (sorry, market forces), it's not about money really. It's virtually impossible to organize a union in the right to work environment because owners can localize and neutralize a "threat" at its root using variety of means. "Right to work" isolate workers, it's you alone against the management machine. Guess who wins 100%?

Isolated, incapable of collective action, obedient and scared, that's the way they like their wage units. That's the way they will get it sooner or later. American working classes are hopeless, and they will take any object up their arses, imho.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Pure Michigan!
4,788 posts, read 8,043,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
I doubt that it's unions that pushed for "part timers" at Kroger. Just imagine talk radio going berserk if Kroger union is going on strike to prevent Kroeger from hiring more and more of part-timers. Unions can do what they can do. And with prevailing popular sentiment "let's spread our buns and bend over, owners would give a sweeter candy" unions cannot do much. Is it fair for part-time Kroeger workers to pay union dues? I really don't know specifics to answer that. We need to compare their wages/work conditions with and without union.
Okay, here goes. Our son worked part-time in the produce department at our local Kroger during his first year of college. He made minimum wage, ended up with a bulging lumbar disc from having to unload an entire produce truck by himself at least once a week, and had union dues taken out of his check every week. When he became injured, no one was "in his corner", he simply had to quit before he injured himself permanently. I'm not sure if anyone in that store even knew who their union rep, if they had one, was. Working conditions there were, and continue to be, abysmal.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by canudigit View Post
Okay, here goes. Our son worked part-time in the produce department at our local Kroger during his first year of college. He made minimum wage, ended up with a bulging lumbar disc from having to unload an entire produce truck by himself at least once a week, and had union dues taken out of his check every week. When he became injured, no one was "in his corner", he simply had to quit before he injured himself permanently. I'm not sure if anyone in that store even knew who their union rep, if they had one, was. Working conditions there were, and continue to be, abysmal.
Not all unions are made equal, especially retail unions. Weak, toothless unions are just about the same as no unions. If Kroeger (and a few other chains) tolerate unions it's not because of the "union thugs" and no "right to work", they have their marketing strategies that employ very weak unions as a coy. Again, I don't know specifics of Kroeger' union and I know nothing about contract and their relationship with managements.

I don't quite understand reasoning of low wage workers who gripe against unions. They want to save a few bucks on union dues because they don't see benefits of unions, but they don't want to get involved, they don't want to fight to make their unions stronger so they could fight for better wages & work conditions. With this sort of slavish attitudes there is no hope and unions are indeed useless. Let's just admit that we are slaves of those who "have" and we would take anything they are willing to give us, whatever that might be. In between we would wave our flags and tell each other how free we are, free to work not on our terms or starve. The end. Why do you need a KGB with that?

Last edited by RememberMee; 12-09-2012 at 01:28 PM..
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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A lot of people would rather not be part of an organization like a union that rewards mediocrity and protects lazy and ineffective workers. Many of us want to be judged on our own merits and not have our pay tied to what some union boss who we've never met can negotiate. The fact is, if you need a union to prop up your wages in today's economy you are either completely unskilled or an incompetent worker. I know many skilled tradespeople who hate their union because of all the lazy workers it protects. They don't feel like it makes any difference how hard they work, because they won't get rewarded for it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,885 posts, read 18,075,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
This legislation never would have happened if Bob King had not attempted his insane power grab with Prop 2. If you're looking for a villain, look no further than solidarity house. Elections have consequences.
So we should blame Bob King that our Republican representatives in Lansing stripped our rights away from us? I'm good with that. Let's throw the whole lousy lot in the ****ter.

*I'm not necessarily against RTW. I'm against bull**** coward legislators who blame others for them being slimeballs. It's like the elementary school playground all over again. And almost always perpetuated by old overweight white dudes. Why is that?

I foresee a worker revolution coming. However, it's going to be tougher than in the early 20th Century because "employees" are much more disbanded now, particularly with the explosive growth of 1099's.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...eir-own-bosses

Those who believe we should all be subject to market forces are probably also ones who blame the current President for the economic recession and that jobs aren't being added fast enough. Aren't recessions a good thing? Aren't they a function of a free market economy? Shouldn't we celebrate that our neighbor and/or brother or sister is without a job?

In fact, if you lost your job tomorrow, with no protections, healthcare, etc., wouldn't that be a good thing? Instead of your employer (who by law has no reason to look out for your interests) keeping you on because you are essentially a liability in the accounting equation? Just wondering.

Last edited by magellan; 12-09-2012 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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Agree with the earlier post regarding the regrettable greed of Prop 2. As many have said, UAW's Bob King will be remembered as the father of Right to Work in Michigan. As far as the 'sneaky' sweep through the legislature, the Republicans learned that tactic from their pals across the aisle with the Obamacare crammer.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:42 PM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,558,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
A lot of people would rather not be part of an organization like a union that rewards mediocrity and protects lazy and ineffective workers. Many of us want to be judged on our own merits and not have our pay tied to what some union boss who we've never met can negotiate. The fact is, if you need a union to prop up your wages in today's economy you are either completely unskilled or an incompetent worker. I know many skilled tradespeople who hate their union because of all the lazy workers it protects. They don't feel like it makes any difference how hard they work, because they won't get rewarded for it.
Most of us are a part of big organizations (we call corporations) with rigid pay scale uniformly applied to everybody, frequently our names are unknown, they assign employee numbers to us. I think you are in denial of the mass market realities, like uniformity, standardization, routine and dumbing down of wage work. For most of workers there is NO way to demonstrate their excellence and slavish vigor. Either you perform standard tasks with required speed and quality or you are discarded. Everybody who's not discarded is paid about the same regardless of his/her affinity for talk radio message.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:48 PM
 
2,205 posts, read 2,927,926 times
Reputation: 2215
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Most of us are a part of big organizations (we call corporations) with rigid pay scale uniformly applied to everybody, frequently our names are unknown, they assign employee numbers to us. I think you are in denial of the mass market realities, like uniformity, standardization, routine and dumbing down of wage work. For most of workers there is NO way to demonstrate their excellence and slavish vigor. Either you perform standard tasks with required speed and quality or you are discarded. Everybody who's not discarded is paid about the same regardless of his/her affinity for talk radio message.
It sounds like you work in a very unskilled position. My pay is directly tied to my education, skills and performance. In today's knowledge-based economy, if you're not skilled you will not do well.
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