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Old 12-05-2012, 06:54 PM
 
485 posts, read 872,619 times
Reputation: 369

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
If RTW passes, my wife will be happy. She is forced to pay into a public union where they take her money and do absolutely nothing for her (since she is part time). Their rules create absurd situations that she has to deal with. And they take her money and spend it supporting some political and social causes she is opposed to. She is an assistant librarian which requires a degree, but she makes only about $12 an hour before paying union dues. Meanwhile clerks assigned to work under her make $20 - $25 an hour and some of them cannot even spell and really have no idea what a library is for. They get the job through seniority doing things like cleaning at the prison, or driving a sewage truck. She could not take the job as a clerk and make more money, because she would have to spend years driving a sewer truck before she would be qualified under union rules for the library clerk position. For her particular organization (library), absolutely every aspect of union impact is negative and nothing is good. Maybe it is different for other jobs.

Lots of people get confused between "supporting collective bargaining rights" and "forcing people to be in a union when they do not want to be in a union" Those are two different concepts. I am very supportive of collective bargaining rights. I think workers should be allowed to form unions and engage in collective bargaining if they want to. However I also think no individual should be forced to join a union they do not want to join in order to keep or get a job. If the individuals do not want union representation, they can negotiate their own employment terms. The unions do not realize it, but this would actually be good for the unions. It will force them to engage in customer service and actually act beneficially for their members rather than ignoring their members interests and needs while pursuing personal political interests. Forcing the unions to become more service oriented will make them more relevant to their members and create renewed support. It certainly appears in Michigan that the unions have pretty much lost the support of their members, or at least a substantial plurality of their members, especially the public workers unions (try to find a teacher who likes and supports their union - you may find one, but it will take a lot of searching. 100% of the teachers I know hate their union.).
My wife is in the same boat but at least she can "opt out" of the union and simply pay extortion, I mean, "service fee" because she is part-time. It's not much but enough to be annoying. It DOES appear that most of the teachers she works with, at least the bravado talk at the lunch table, support the union. Certainly the only signs in the area supporting Prop 2 were teacher's residences. Funny how I counted about 30 yard signs with "Yes on 2" and maybe ONE "No on 2" yet it was soundly defeated in the voting booth where people can punch a private ballot. No one wants to outwardly offend the teachers I guess.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Michigan
5,369 posts, read 4,851,482 times
Reputation: 1627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes View Post
My wife is in the same boat but at least she can "opt out" of the union and simply pay extortion, I mean, "service fee" because she is part-time. It's not much but enough to be annoying. It DOES appear that most of the teachers she works with, at least the bravado talk at the lunch table, support the union. Certainly the only signs in the area supporting Prop 2 were teacher's residences. Funny how I counted about 30 yard signs with "Yes on 2" and maybe ONE "No on 2" yet it was soundly defeated in the voting booth where people can punch a private ballot. No one wants to outwardly offend the teachers I guess.
Many, if not most of the people who voted against Prop 2 (and all the other Props) did so, because they wanted to make them part of the state constitution.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,970 posts, read 2,096,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather View Post
Before the election, he was vehemently opposed to it. Now all of a sudden, after a "discussion" with political hack Grover Norquist he's "considering it."

Snyder puts right to work on agenda | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com
The Republican plan continues to be the destruction of the American middle class and the ascension of plutocracy, their tactics haven't changed. They aim to make Michigan a pro-poverty state.

Democrats warn Snyder, GOP not to push right-to-work legislation | Lansing State Journal | lansingstatejournal.com

They won and America lost in Wisconsin and Indiana. The good guys won in Ohio, and of course in our recent national election for President. I wonder if the Michigan Republicans will attack police and firefighters in addition to regular public and private sector workers, or leave them alone for now as in Wisconsin.

The evil is so naked. Base, immoral people, these Republicans.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:40 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,119 posts, read 5,770,335 times
Reputation: 4448
Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4 View Post
The Republican plan continues to be the destruction of the American middle class and the ascension of plutocracy, their tactics haven't changed. They aim to make Michigan a pro-poverty state.

Democrats warn Snyder, GOP not to push right-to-work legislation | Lansing State Journal | lansingstatejournal.com

They won and America lost in Wisconsin and Indiana. The good guys won in Ohio, and of course in our recent national election for President. I wonder if the Michigan Republicans will attack police and firefighters in addition to regular public and private sector workers, or leave them alone for now as in Wisconsin.

The evil is so naked. Base, immoral people, these Republicans.
Um... no. If anything is immoral in the truest sense, it's probably the unions themselves. Trying to get as much pay and benefits as possible for workers, with the easiest work rules that can possibly be negotiated, with zero regard for whether the company can stay profitable or competitive, all under the threat of striking and damaging the company, is the definition of immoral. Not to mention that unions kill the will of high achievers and help the low achievers get away with doing less. I'm not seeing a whole lot of morality in that mission statement.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Michigan
5,369 posts, read 4,851,482 times
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Right To Work succeeds in cutting wages, by $2000, but does nothing to boost job growth.

In the 1970s, companies may have moved to southern states in search of lower wages. But in 2012, companies looking for cheap labor are moving to China or Mexico, not South Carolina or Michigan.

Separate studies at the University of Kentucky and at Michigan State concluded that RTW had no discernible impact on job growth.

Many of the companies who have recently moved or opened new facilities in the south, have done so, due to large incentives and tax breaks (your tax dollars) given to the companies.

Right to work laws lower wages for everyone.


(Doesn't federal law already protect workers who don’t want to join a union to get or keep their jobs? Just askin')
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:50 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,119 posts, read 5,770,335 times
Reputation: 4448
Quote:
Right To Work succeeds in cutting wages, by $2000, but does nothing to boost job growth.
Studies have shown that, when adjusted for cost of living, workers have more buying power in right-to-work states. Yes, wages are lower, but cost of living is also lower (maybe due to the financial advantage of not having forced unionism and the resulting higher taxes?). This fact is usually not mentioned in this debate.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:13 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,083 posts, read 35,568,134 times
Reputation: 16932
Quote:
Originally Posted by plannine View Post
Right To Work succeeds in cutting wages, by $2000, but does nothing to boost job growth.
Another 1/2 truth the unions love to spew.


Quote:
(Doesn't federal law already protect workers who don’t want to join a union to get or keep their jobs? Just askin')
NO. In non Right to work states a union may force a person to join the union for a job, or force a person to pay union dues without representation from the union to get/keep a job if the job place is unionized. Think of it as "protection money" to borrow a phrase from another "organized" group uses to describe that type of payment.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,970 posts, read 2,096,428 times
Reputation: 1755
Daily Kos Labor at Daily Kos


Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:27 PM PST
Grover Norquist lobbies for anti-union law in Michigan

by Laura Clawsonattribution: Gage Skidmore

Grover Norquist isn't just trying to throw his weight around keeping congressional Republicans opposed to anything but tax cuts for billionaires, he's also issuing marching orders to Republicans in the Michigan state legislature. And this time, his goal is not tax cuts but passage of an anti-union law during the lame duck session:
Norquist, founder of Americans for Tax Reform, sent all legislators a letter Nov. 30, adding to the growing chorus of conservative groups pressuring the Republican-controlled Legislature to jam through a right-to-work bill in the lame duck session this month."This is one of the most important steps you can take to jumpstart the state's economy, boost employment, and spur population growth," Norquist wrote in a letter to legislators obtained by The Detroit News.
A "right to work" law doesn't actually get anyone work or give them any right other than free representation at the expense of their coworkers; in no state is anyone required to join a union to have a job, but in free bargaining states, people in union workplaces pay a fee to cover the direct costs of representing them. As Dean Baker has argued, this amounts to a tax on union membership. By creating such free-riders, the law weakens unions and gives employers more power. That's one big reason a 2011 briefing paper from the Economic Policy Institute found that:
Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
Employer-provided health coverage and pensions are also less common in these states. And of course low pay and disappearing benefits, not any new rights or new jobs, are why people like Grover Norquist—and groups like the Michigan Chamber of Commerce, and Americans for Prosperity—really support "right to work."
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:04 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,083 posts, read 35,568,134 times
Reputation: 16932
Wages in RTW states ARE 3.2% lower is correct, now what is the overall COL in those same states? Don't know... do some checking yourself like I did, Average COL is 10% lower in those same states. Looks like a 6.8% increase of spending power to me, not the doomsday crap the unions are spewing. RTW is NOT anti-union in the least, it prohibits unions from charging dues to non-members and offering zero representation to those same workers. Ever work white-paper in a union shop? I have, paid dues same as union members, difference being that I was constantly reminded that the union doesn't represent me and that I had zero benefit from them. There is no such thing as a union shop you say? BS! They just don't call them "closed shops" anymore. Ask any nurse that works for a unionized hospital, they have no choice except to join the union that represents the nurses that work there. That is just one example, there are plenty more from construction, manufacturing, etc....

I have worked in Sates that are RTW and States that are not, I hope Michigan pulls it's head out of it's collective ass and passes the RTW law. The unions have a stranglehold on the State and the lies they pass off as truths are sickening.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,970 posts, read 2,096,428 times
Reputation: 1755
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
Um... no. If anything is immoral in the truest sense, it's probably the unions themselves. Trying to get as much pay and benefits as possible for workers, with the easiest work rules that can possibly be negotiated, with zero regard for whether the company can stay profitable or competitive, all under the threat of striking and damaging the company, is the definition of immoral. Not to mention that unions kill the will of high achievers and help the low achievers get away with doing less. I'm not seeing a whole lot of morality in that mission statement.
You have formulated an incorrect negative assessment of the American worker. The vast majority of people I have worked with after 30 years in the workforce are hard-working, dedicated people. Unions are a check on managerial corruption and abuse, as well as having the effect of raising the standard of living for everyone. This is obvious.

The continued attack on the American worker by Republicon greedheads will be stemmed. We have the Presidency, the Senate and will have the House. Michigan is temporarily in enemy hands.
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