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Tax money received from the entire state seems to be wasted in the Detroit area.
The state is very messed up and will take a long time to fix. I wouldn't advise anybody to move here at the present time.
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Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn
the nation's ugliest and most pathetic large city.
As a born-and-bred Chicagoan, I have to agree that Chicago is overblown in the entire Midwest as some utopia, just as NY is to the rest of the nation.
That said, the thing I dislike most about MI is the critical mass of ignorance. For all the complaints about SoCal being superficial and whatnot, in general, there is a progressive mentality even if one is just a part of the herd. Being part of the herd here means that you're generally ignorant. Doesn't matter whether you're black, white, green, or purple - ignorance abounds, it's in the water, a part of the culture. Part of it has to do with its history. People came here in the first half of the 20th century with four limbs and that's it. Even up to the present, there are people making $80k/year who are barely literate. I'm not saying education is a silver bullet, but a critical mass of ignorance doesn't help either.
This system of people making so much money with little education is a major cause of all the urban/suburban, black/white, poor/rich dichotomy. Educated people with money, like in CA, usually have compassion and understanding - ignorant people with money do not. Ethnicity or some other tertiary factor gets pointed at and derided. I've met teachers from one of the top school districts in MI and it's amazing how ignorant they are about non-white cultures. Well, at least they have a bachelor's degree.
But ignorance is hardwired into the culture here. Until some of it is diluted and weeded out, Detroit is never going anywhere. People point to how successful Minnesota and Wisconsin are, but they don't realize it's b/c the creative class that makes them successful are drawn in by thriving urban centers with populations over 500k. It's no coincidence that the rise of Minnesota has to do with the rise of the Twin Cities and the rise of Wisconsin coincides with the rise of Milwaukee and Madison. The youngsters of the creative class want world-class orchestras, historic architecture, museums, urban intellectual bastions, etc. in a dense setting - things that only Detroit could possibly provide in MI. Studies and history show that Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor don't have the wattage to pull it off. Yet Detroit is largely viewed as an albatross and not a potential savior. The entire situation is tragic and won't change until a big bulk of the old guard - white, black, green, and purple - move to places like Arizona, Nevada, and the Carolinas. THANK GOD it's happening as we speak - addition by subtraction...
Last edited by Cato the Elder; 03-06-2008 at 07:32 AM..
As a born-and-bred Chicagoan, I have to agree that Chicago is overblown in the entire Midwest as some utopia, just as NY is to the rest of the nation.
That said, the thing I dislike most about MI is the critical mass of ignorance. For all the complaints about SoCal being superficial and whatnot, in general, there is a progressive mentality even if one is just a part of the herd. Being part of the herd here means that you're generally ignorant. Doesn't matter whether you're black, white, green, or purple - ignorance abounds, it's in the water, a part of the culture. Part of it has to do with its history. People came here in the first half of the 20th century with four limbs and that's it. Even up to the present, there are people making $80k/year who are barely literate. I'm not saying education is a silver bullet, but a critical mass of ignorance doesn't help either.
This system of people making so much money with little education is a major cause of all the urban/suburban, black/white, poor/rich dichotomy. Educated people with money, like in CA, usually have compassion and understanding - ignorant people with money do not. Ethnicity or some other tertiary factor gets pointed at and derided. I've met teachers from one of the top school districts in MI and it's amazing how ignorant they are about non-white cultures. Well, at least they have a bachelor's degree.
But ignorance is hardwired into the culture here. Until some of it is diluted and weeded out, Detroit is never going anywhere. People point to how successful Minnesota and Wisconsin are, but they don't realize it's b/c the creative class that makes them successful are drawn in by thriving urban centers with populations over 500k. It's no coincidence that the rise of Minnesota has to do with the rise of the Twin Cities and the rise of Wisconsin coincides with the rise of Milwaukee and Madison. The youngsters of the creative class want world-class orchestras, historic architecture, museums, urban intellectual bastions, etc. in a dense setting - things that only Detroit could possibly provide in MI. Studies and history show that Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor don't have the wattage to pull it off. Yet Detroit is largely viewed as an albatross and not a potential savior. The entire situation is tragic and won't change until a big bulk of the old guard - white, black, green, and purple - move to places like Arizona, Nevada, and the Carolinas. THANK GOD it's happening as we speak - addition by subtraction...
This is very insightful and as a member of the so called "creative class" it is 100% true. People in their 20s and 30s want big city ameneties. Detroit does have an excellent symphony, museums and restaurants, but a person new to the area would really need a guide to find these things because they are spread out and with all the people telling them "the city is a dump with nothing to offer", most just assume nothing worthwhile exists here and miss out.
I have lived in other cities, but I moved back here for family reasons. I enjoy Detroit, we go to the symphony, theatre and restaurants in the city. My biggest complaint about living here is the CONSTANT negativity and hopelessness the people of Detroit and Michigan live by. This attitude is what has me wanting to leave. I have never been anywhere where people complain and see only the negative in every circumstance. Ann Arbor is the only place with a modicum of pride, but a small college town just doesn't compare to a big city.
Ann Arbor is the only place with a modicum of pride, but a small college town just doesn't compare to a big city.
Let me add Grand Rapids to the list. I've done an extensive amount of research in anticipation of my relocation and it's hard to ignore the sense of community pride and 'can do' attitude that abounds.
Yes, no question there could be a better job market but the town isn't on hold ... they're's building for tomorrow with an eye fixed on the future and the amount of downtown redevelopment is quite remarkable to see.
Let me add Grand Rapids to the list. I've done an extensive amount of research in anticipation of my relocation and it's hard to ignore the sense of community pride and 'can do' attitude that abounds.
Yes, no question there could be a better job market but the town isn't on hold ... they're's building for tomorrow with an eye fixed on the future and the amount of downtown redevelopment is quite remarkable to see.
I was only speaking of SE Michigan because that's the area I know. You are right though, I have heard many positive things about Grand Rapids and if I was looking for a smaller city I would consider it. If I had never been to metro Detroit and heard all the negativity, I would not consider it and that would be a shame because I enjoy living here.
Relocating to Ca for job and family. Love MI-beautiful state! Didn't like the cold winter this year-looking forward to warm weather-I could drive 1 hour in Ca to go see snow-The weather is the greatest trade off-although I love the four seasons-I think I'llbe able to deal with CA seasons!
I'm also part of the creative class and I'm wondering to what extent is its presence right now in Detroit(and the metro area) Wouldn't a struggling artist love to live in a cheap place in Detroit and actually eat 3 meals a day opposed to renting a cot in a NYC apartment looking for scraps to eat due to high cost of living?? Just a thought.....and please this has nothing to do with what Detroit has to offer compared to NYC b/c I think a true artist just want to feed his/her soul...and I believe that can be found in Detroit...for a more artist friendly price!!
I'm also part of the creative class and I'm wondering to what extent is its presence right now in Detroit(and the metro area) Wouldn't a struggling artist love to live in a cheap place in Detroit and actually eat 3 meals a day opposed to renting a cot in a NYC apartment looking for scraps to eat due to high cost of living?? Just a thought.....and please this has nothing to do with what Detroit has to offer compared to NYC b/c I think a true artist just want to feed his/her soul...and I believe that can be found in Detroit...for a more artist friendly price!!
There is plenty of creativity going on here in Detroit, theatre, art galleries, cool restaurants, brew pubs... The mid town Wayne State/CCS area near the DIA is where your most likely to find these people living and Corktown is becoming more popular. I have actually been thinking about getting some of my friends to contribute to a guide of some sort. Most of my friends live and play in the city and have very little use for the suburbs. Before people start in with the usual negativityI'm not saying it's perfect, yes there are run down buildings, yes we have a long way to go.... It's still a great place because people are working to make it better, we have to try a lot harder here than somewhere like NYC.
Creative types with positive attitude(but, your art can be as dark as you like) wanted in Detroit, you will be welcomed here.
I'm also part of the creative class and I'm wondering to what extent is its presence right now in Detroit(and the metro area) Wouldn't a struggling artist love to live in a cheap place in Detroit and actually eat 3 meals a day opposed to renting a cot in a NYC apartment looking for scraps to eat due to high cost of living?? Just a thought.....and please this has nothing to do with what Detroit has to offer compared to NYC b/c I think a true artist just want to feed his/her soul...and I believe that can be found in Detroit...for a more artist friendly price!!
The creative class exists, but they are scattered pioneers here - Ferndale, Ann Arbor, Midtown, etc. I heard there was a gay-friendly enclave somewhere in the northern part of the city but it collapsed before my time here and people moved to Ferndale, which not-so-coincidentally coincided with the latter's rise.
What you want to have is a city achieve critical mass without going "supernova." NY, SF, LA, Boston, and even Chicago, I consider having gone supernova. The creative pioneers who made Manhattan, and then the boroughs, great places to live starting in the 70s have been largely pushed out. Overall, you start with bohemian types willing to overlook some blight and crime. Things start to turn around which then leads to some degree of gentrification and a watershed moment. Ironically, if gentrification goes haywire, yuppification starts to push out the people who made it hip to begin with. Dollar signs start to cannabalize the very people who made development possible. Think the Castro in SF (and just about every other place in the city now), SoHo in NY, and even Ann Arbor.
I had a friend who started in Manhattan and eventually ended up at the artist enclave near Williamsburg Bridge. Eventually, they got pushed to the "6th borough" of Philadelphia. Then Center City and Northern Liberties got too hot and he ended up in University City where he lives to this day. We'll see how long he can stay. I don't think where he lives will go supernova, as it's on the boundary of largely black West Philadelphia, but you never know. It does have the top public K-8 school in the city and it's next to an Ivy League university. You can hear the yuppy drool hitting the floor from here.
The creative class exists, but they are scattered pioneers here - Ferndale, Ann Arbor, Midtown, etc. I heard there was a gay-friendly enclave somewhere in the northern part of the city but it collapsed before my time here and people moved to Ferndale, which not-so-coincidentally coincided with the latter's rise.
What you want to have is a city achieve critical mass without going "supernova." NY, SF, LA, Boston, and even Chicago, I consider having gone supernova. The creative pioneers who made Manhattan, and then the boroughs, great places to live starting in the 70s have been largely pushed out. Overall, you start with bohemian types willing to overlook some blight and crime. Things start to turn around which then leads to some degree of gentrification and a watershed moment. Ironically, if gentrification goes haywire, yuppification starts to push out the people who made it hip to begin with. Dollar signs start to cannabalize the very people who made development possible. Think the Castro in SF (and just about every other place in the city now), SoHo in NY, and even Ann Arbor.
I had a friend who started in Manhattan and eventually ended up at the artist enclave near Williamsburg Bridge. Eventually, they got pushed to the "6th borough" of Philadelphia. Then Center City and Northern Liberties got too hot and he ended up in University City where he lives to this day. We'll see how long he can stay. I don't think where he lives will go supernova, as it's on the boundary of largely black West Philadelphia, but you never know. It does have the top public K-8 school in the city and it's next to an Ivy League university. You can hear the yuppy drool hitting the floor from here.
Interesting topic. I have a cousin who is gay and lives in Washington D.C., that my wife and I visited in August 07. He lives in an area called Capital Park, which is NE of the capital and is becoming a big "gay-friendly enclave". The main street through the area, H Street, would make Woodward Ave proud with its iron bars on everything, disintegrated sidewalks, and groups of wiley characters on every corner. But just off of H Street are blocks after blocks of beautiful brownstones that are quickly being bought up by the creative class, sending prices skyrocketing from $150/sf to $300+/sf in a few short years. And a couple of young entrepreneurial bar owners have opened a string of live juke joints along H Street that draw a predominantly "creative class" crowd.
The way my cousin explains the "gay pioneers" is this: when you have two males living together, they're a little more adventurous and brave than young hetero couples. They're not so afraid to walk the streets at night to go to the bars, etc.. Plus, they don't care about the school district. They're the first to move into these areas and slowly create a tipping point, where as you say, things go "supernova" and gentrification takes over.
Here's a birds-eye of Capital Park. Toggle around and you'll be amazed by all the brick brownstones.
That said, the thing I dislike most about MI is the critical mass of ignorance. For all the complaints about SoCal being superficial and whatnot, in general, there is a progressive mentality even if one is just a part of the herd. Being part of the herd here means that you're generally ignorant. Doesn't matter whether you're black, white, green, or purple - ignorance abounds, it's in the water, a part of the culture. Part of it has to do with its history. People came here in the first half of the 20th century with four limbs and that's it. Even up to the present, there are people making $80k/year who are barely literate. I'm not saying education is a silver bullet, but a critical mass of ignorance doesn't help either.
It almost sounds as though you're saying that Michiganders are knuckle-dragging ignoramuses and that few have college educations. Could you please elaborate on exactly what you mean by "ignorance"? Is the alleged "ignorance" really ignorance or is it just a case of people who have a philosophical disagreement with you? How does this "ignorance" manifest itself?
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I'm not saying it's perfect, yes there are run down buildings, yes we have a long way to go.... It's still a great place because people are working to make it better, we have to try a lot harder here than somewhere like NYC.
