[nycjefftrain]

To Just T:..LOL at the flaming orange!! I haven't spent much time in the UP. It's embarrasing when I run into somebody here who knows I'm from MI and asks me about the UP. I feel like an idiot at that point....I owe a visit to da good ol UP. A good family friend grew up in the UP. She used to have a bumper sticker that says "Say Yah to da UP, Eh"...cracked me up!!

To Cato and Bhaal- I know what you mean by ignorance. And yes, I think it comes from one being not "cultured" enough. I'm sure there are people from Mississippi who have returned "cultured". To make a point of this area and that area as more racist and/or ignorant, there is a long thread on both the Chicago and New Jersey boards on this very same topic. Both Chicagoans and New Jerseyans are asking whether or not they are more racist and/or ignorant than other parts of the country. So, I guess this happens everywhere.

[detshen]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

I don't know or haven't paid much attention to that guy so I can't really comment, but I suspect that you can also find people without college educations who are not "ignorant" and it's difficult to make sweeping generalizations like the claim you made based on small amounts of anecdotal evidence.



I've never heard of this case but I was just a little kidlin back then. Without knowing anything all of the details about the case it's impossible to comment on the merit of the jury's verdict. Anyway, I doubt that racially and ethnically motivated killings are unique to Detroit.

I have a hard time believing that Michiganders and Detroiters are any more racist and anti-social than people in other states and cities and a couple anecdotes collected over years isn't real convincing. If we went looking I'm certain that we could find a vast plethora of racial incidents and similar complaints all across the country.

It has not been my experience that metro Detroit is any more ignorant than many other places. I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in the city, it was skilled blue collar (police, fireman, mechanics, electricians...)That may be different than factory workers who don't pursue an actual skill, I really don't know, but the people I grew up around were not racist gay bashers, just good and intelligent people raising families, most kids went to college or pursued one of the skilled trades.

It was quite natural for me to grow up valuing intelligence as well as hard work, I do not feel I had to "overcome" my background. I have a big problem with the idea that a college degree makes someone intelligent. I know many well read, aware and self educated people who weren't able to afford college or chose to go into a field that didn't require it.

I have a large group of friends who would all be considered "creative class" and they are all quite happy here. I moved away for 12 years and found there were good and bad people in every city.

[Cato the Elder]

Again, Bhaal, you can and will believe what you want. Read my posts more carefully. I never said it doesn't occur elsewhere. In fact, I clearly point out it does occur elsewhere. My point is that it's rife with ignorance here, especially in light of the context. It's a relative judgment. If one was living in some backwater rural area of Mississippi or Pennsylvania, it wouldn't be surprising. This is a freakin' top ten metro area of the northern US. It was a cultural beacon in the early 20th century with art brought from Europe, architects brought from Philadelphia, etc. Without significiant new blood, Detroit's fallen behind the curve and is more insular and provincial than cities like Nashville, Atlanta, Charlotte, Milwaukee, etc. This wasn't the case 50 years ago. Again, believe what you want, it doesn't change reality.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by Acupunk

I have a big problem with the idea that a college degree makes someone intelligent. I know many well read, aware and self educated people who weren't able to afford college or chose to go into a field that didn't require it.

I have a large group of friends who would all be considered "creative class" and they are all quite happy here. I moved away for 12 years and found there were good and bad people in every city.

A college degree doesn't make one more intelligent, but it can dispel ignorance if the person is willing. In fact, it's the most accessible and concentrated way to do so. Unlike ignorance, intelligence is something innate in you - your "IQ," and it does not guarantee a lack or presence of ignorance.

Attending college CAN culture/"humanize" you - this was the point long before it was primarily viewed as a vehicle for getting a job and schools of business, medicine, etc. popped up. In this day and age, you can largely avoid taking "useless" classes like history, art, geography, anthropology etc. in college, so it guarantees nothing.

Look at Chris Webber and Shane Battier vs. Jamal Crawford. Chris Webber went to Detroit Country Day and later used his time at Michigan effectively. He is now one of the foremost proponents of African Art. Shane Battier is a Birmingham product and used his time at Duke effectively and has all sorts of plans after the NBA. Jamal Crawford's future? Perhaps carrying a baseball bat in the back of the trunk or a metaphorical one in his mind?

On the flipside of university, you can pull off an Abe Lincoln and read The Life of George Washington by firelight and get cultured without any formal education. How often does this happen? Did your friends you grew up with attend the DSO and theater, or the Tigers and Lions? Again, attending one or the other guarantees nothing, but generally, going to a Tigers game, while entertaining, does little long-term for your soul.

[detshen]

Cato, can I ask, what do you feel is the best solution for the ignorance you see? I know you have mentioned some broad things like ignorant people leaving, but for those of us here on a day to day basis, what is our best solution.

I get frustrated because there is so much Detroit bashing and fear about the city. My core group of friends live in the city and appreciate the culture that is here and support the creation of new places, but I have to work so hard to get some of my suburban family members to come down to the symphony or even eat at one of the great restaurants.

If we don't start appreciating and pointing out the good that is here, how will we ever convince people it's worthwhile to visit or live here?

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by Acupunk

Cato, can I ask, what do you feel is the best solution for the ignorance you see? I know you have mentioned some broad things like ignorant people leaving, but for those of us here on a day to day basis, what is our best solution.

I get frustrated because there is so much Detroit bashing and fear about the city. My core group of friends live in the city and appreciate the culture that is here and support the creation of new places, but I have to work so hard to get some of my suburban family members to come down to the symphony or even eat at one of the great restaurants.

If we don't start appreciating and pointing out the good that is here, how will we ever convince people it's worthwhile to visit or live here?

It's simple as monkey-see-monkey-do. As you mentioned, it's difficult to change a cultural trend. It's like changing the losing culture of the Lions. Neither can happen overnight. It takes many years for a place like Detroit to go down the cultural tubes so it takes many years for it to right itself. Like attracts like and unlike dispels like. In a nutshell, you need a critical mass of progressive, open-minded people. These people have traditionally fled metro Detroit for places like Chicago, NY, SF, and LA. Homebred MI talent like Larry Page are doing great things for these cities. You need a bunch of mini-Larrys to do their thing in metro Detroit. They can't be superstars like Page, as they will invariably go to the biggest stages where they thrive. I'm not really worried about them. I'm worried about the everyday mini-Larrys leaving when they could have done well here. You need these anonymous creative-class members to achieve critical mass here. As I've mentioned many times, it will take a revitalization of Detroit - simple as that. Using another cliche, if you build it, they will come. Unfortunately, there are significant political and cultural barriers to "building it" right now.

[detshen]

I feel like if you keep focusing on the ignorant people you add to the problem. Who wants to come to a city that people say is an ignorant, racist, gay bashing haven? I know there are ignorant people here, but there are also many progressive, creative and interesting people. All my gay friends feel comfortable here, bashing isn't rampant.

[Cato the Elder]

The problem is, if you ignore it, it won't go away and will in fact become worse. It's the 800lb gorilla in the room. Running away from it won't help either, unless you move FAR away. If you're not a part of the solution, you're probably a part of the problem. This is why I welcome the "addition by subtraction."

Trust me, I'm generally an optimistic person. I believe in Detroit and want it to change. There are a lot of people like this who are working in the trenches as we speak. We just need a whole lot more of them.

[detshen]

I'm not saying ignore the problem, showing both sides of the situation isn't ignoring the problems.

[detshen]

I was eating at Slow's in Corktown a couple weeks ago and I was facing the window and I looked out and saw that big abandoned building that's near mexican town, and I also saw the sign on the window across the street saying a new coffee shop was opening soon. I had two choices, I could get depressed over the abandoned building and contemplate moving out of this "hellhole" as others like to call it, or I could look forward to that coffee shop opening and the possibility of a lot more business coming to the area. I chose the positive. It doesn't mean I don't see the abandoned building, I just refused to let that feeling take over and ruin the good feeling related to the coffee shop..