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I agree, I'm not a fan of MDOT, and I think there should be a moratorium on all expansions until all the bonds/debt is repaid, the roads are predominantly brought up to "good" standing, and 10 years from now, whichever comes first.
I didn't want your comment to slip by without saying "Hey--we agree!" The first order of business should be a wholesale moratorium on expanding roads through the addition of new lanes or building completely new roads (such as the stupid expressway MDOT wanted (wants?) to build from Standish to Alpena). In the Detroit area, MDOT continues to fund the construction of urban-sprawl inducing roadways. They also have Billion Dollar plans to add lanes to I-94 in the City of Detroit. I am not so naive as to believe that this excessive tax increase is intended to be used solely to repair our roads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan
If you're afraid that we'll have the perception of having the highest state sales tax rate in the country, why aren't you afraid that we'll have the highest gas tax in the country?
Do you not understand that Proposal 1 will give us the highest gas taxes in the country, except for Pennsylvania? I object to Proposal 1 because it is excessive. The rationale for a general sales tax increase was to offset the removal of the sales tax from gas and diesel--but the amount of the sales tax increase far exceeds the amount necessary.
Likewise, it has been argued that increasing the gas tax would offset the removal of the sales tax--however the increase in the gas tax is more than double the amount attributed to removing the sales tax on gas and diesel. Raising the gas tax from 19 cents per gallon to 41.7 cents per gallon is excessive! Plus we pay an additional federal tax of 18.4 cents per gallon--which will likely go up, too. Coupled with the federal tax, we'll be paying a minimum of 60.1 cents per gallon in fuel taxes on gas, 66.1 cents/gallon on diesel.
The crux of the issue is that MDOT will more than double what they can spend on roads--without any restriction that those dollars be used to pay for repairs. I think that is both excessive and ill-advised.
I didn't want your comment to slip by without saying "Hey--we agree!" The first order of business should be a wholesale moratorium on expanding roads through the addition of new lanes or building completely new roads (such as the stupid expressway MDOT wanted (wants?) to build from Standish to Alpena). In the Detroit area, MDOT continues to fund the construction of urban-sprawl inducing roadways. They also have Billion Dollar plans to add lanes to I-94 in the City of Detroit. I am not so naive as to believe that this excessive tax increase is intended to be used solely to repair our roads.
Do you not understand that Proposal 1 will give us the highest gas taxes in the country, except for Pennsylvania? I object to Proposal 1 because it is excessive. The rationale for a general sales tax increase was to offset the removal of the sales tax from gas and diesel--but the amount of the sales tax increase far exceeds the amount necessary.
Likewise, it has been argued that increasing the gas tax would offset the removal of the sales tax--however the increase in the gas tax is more than double the amount attributed to removing the sales tax on gas and diesel. Raising the gas tax from 19 cents per gallon to 41.7 cents per gallon is excessive! Plus we pay an additional federal tax of 18.4 cents per gallon--which will likely go up, too. Coupled with the federal tax, we'll be paying a minimum of 60.1 cents per gallon in fuel taxes on gas, 66.1 cents/gallon on diesel.
The crux of the issue is that MDOT will more than double what they can spend on roads--without any restriction that those dollars be used to pay for repairs. I think that is both excessive and ill-advised.
So we need close to $2 Billion a year to get the roads up to snuff, and pay off debt that MDOT has incurred because they don't get enough funding. But you'll probably be lucky to increase it to $1.2 Billion a year. And we need to focus all energy and attention toward upgrading the current infrastructure and not expanding anything. How do we do it?
So we need close to $2 Billion a year to get the roads up to snuff, and pay off debt that MDOT has incurred because they don't get enough funding. But you'll probably be lucky to increase it to $1.2 Billion a year. And we need to focus all energy and attention toward upgrading the current infrastructure and not expanding anything. How do we do it?
What happened to the money MDOT received from the Engler gas tax increase?
MDOT still has not repaired the steel cables at the site of the 190 vehicle pileup on I-94 by Kalamazoo. Looks like it just happened. And this is the same MDOT that is going to fix our roads?
This is an example of why I do not support the Proposal. Michigan effectivley has no staff left running the highway program for our State. Everything is out-sourced. This tax increase will fund lots of consultants (the groups backing this proposal!) but I am not convinced it will truly repair our roads.
It was only 4 cents per gallon, not nearly enough for what was needed.
Maybe the Director of MDOT position should be an elected position. Or have a stronger oversight committee of civilians and elected officials overseeing MDOT. I agree that with Michigan's population essentially at the same level it was in 1997, there's no reason to expand highways or add new ones. Either that or remove a bunch of the highways in Detroit that criss cross the city so they don't have to be maintained anymore.
So we need close to $2 Billion a year to get the roads up to snuff, and pay off debt that MDOT has incurred because they don't get enough funding. But you'll probably be lucky to increase it to $1.2 Billion a year. And we need to focus all energy and attention toward upgrading the current infrastructure and not expanding anything. How do we do it?
Again, MDOT hasn't been borrowing money because they didn't have funding--they borrow money (by issuing bonds) against future revenues because it's a typical way in which numerous capital improvement projects are financed. The theory is that since the capital improvement projects are to last for many years, then the payments for those projects should also be spread out over many years. That way, future beneficiaries of the improvement will also be contributing to pay for that improvement. Plus, since tax-free government bonds carry low interest rates (at least lower than typical debt, even though in very recent years the interest rates have been artificially low anyway), the rationale is that it is "cheap" money since future dollars will usually not have as much buying power.
There are valid reasons to go into debt (issue bonds) to finance government capital improvement projects. Frankly, I believe those reasons are overblown--and it would be better to use a "pay-as-you-go" system. It's just too easy to pay for new roads through debt-financing, and MDOT has a history of failing to factor in the long-term maintenance costs of new pavement. (Come on down and look at the 12 -14 lanes of pavement on I-96 in Detroit--a wasteful and total excess.)
I actually believe that not giving them all the money they want is a good thing. In fact, it's the only thing that will hopefully force them to review their priorities. Maintenance of the existing road system should be their top and only priority. We don't get there by simply giving them more money to spend.
I could support a more modest increase in the gas tax--with or without removal of the sales tax. (There are good reasons to keep the sales tax on, just like in many other states, but I actually would favor removing the sales tax from gasoline.) If MDOT would come up with a specific list of repair projects, I think it would also be appropriate for the legislature to fund those through an allocation from some of the state's surplus. While I normally would favor having the road system funded entirely through fuel excise taxes, I think the situation demands looking at alternatives. Plus, I don't think our situation warrants putting the gas tax at a perpetually high level. Once the gas tax goes up, it's pretty much guaranteed that it's never coming down. I'd rather that Michigan take a stepped approach.
Giving MDOT many BILLIONS extra, in unrestricted dollars, to spend over the next few years won't solve our fundamental problems--it will exacerbate them. Unless they change their policies and practices, we'd be back to square one in no time.
It was only 4 cents per gallon, not nearly enough for what was needed.
Maybe the Director of MDOT position should be an elected position. Or have a stronger oversight committee of civilians and elected officials overseeing MDOT. I agree that with Michigan's population essentially at the same level it was in 1997, there's no reason to expand highways or add new ones. Either that or remove a bunch of the highways in Detroit that criss cross the city so they don't have to be maintained anymore.
I did not read anywhere in the article any initiatives to lower truck weights on Michigan's roads or new initiatives to hold road construction firms responsible for the road repair/construction they perform. I guess they want consumers to keep throwing good money after bad.
Where is Michigan's portion of the federal gas tax? Are Michigan's political clowns in Washington dropping the ball again?
Again, MDOT hasn't been borrowing money because they didn't have funding--they borrow money (by issuing bonds) against future revenues because it's a typical way in which numerous capital improvement projects are financed. The theory is that since the capital improvement projects are to last for many years, then the payments for those projects should also be spread out over many years. That way, future beneficiaries of the improvement will also be contributing to pay for that improvement. Plus, since tax-free government bonds carry low interest rates (at least lower than typical debt, even though in very recent years the interest rates have been artificially low anyway), the rationale is that it is "cheap" money since future dollars will usually not have as much buying power.
There are valid reasons to go into debt (issue bonds) to finance government capital improvement projects. Frankly, I believe those reasons are overblown--and it would be better to use a "pay-as-you-go" system. It's just too easy to pay for new roads through debt-financing, and MDOT has a history of failing to factor in the long-term maintenance costs of new pavement. (Come on down and look at the 12 -14 lanes of pavement on I-96 in Detroit--a wasteful and total excess.)
I actually believe that not giving them all the money they want is a good thing. In fact, it's the only thing that will hopefully force them to review their priorities. Maintenance of the existing road system should be their top and only priority. We don't get there by simply giving them more money to spend.
I could support a more modest increase in the gas tax--with or without removal of the sales tax. (There are good reasons to keep the sales tax on, just like in many other states, but I actually would favor removing the sales tax from gasoline.) If MDOT would come up with a specific list of repair projects, I think it would also be appropriate for the legislature to fund those through an allocation from some of the state's surplus. While I normally would favor having the road system funded entirely through fuel excise taxes, I think the situation demands looking at alternatives. Plus, I don't think our situation warrants putting the gas tax at a perpetually high level. Once the gas tax goes up, it's pretty much guaranteed that it's never coming down. I'd rather that Michigan take a stepped approach.
Giving MDOT many BILLIONS extra, in unrestricted dollars, to spend over the next few years won't solve our fundamental problems--it will exacerbate them. Unless they change their policies and practices, we'd be back to square one in no time.
Any of the plan B's that come out of this if it fails will be a large increase in gas tax, that will be voted on by the legislature with no input from citizens. MDOT will get the money no matter how this all goes down. Although it might be $700 or $800 Million more a year instead of $1.2 billion.
Here's one plan B that they could go back to, called the Bolger plan:
$1.2 Billion more for roads without "raising taxes." The problem is it raises fuel taxes, and takes away sales tax on gasoline, and doesn't make it up anywhere. That's $1.2 Billion less a year for the school districts, which is a crushing decrease. There's very little political will to take that much away from schools to make roads better.
"On roads, as I saw my entire time in the Legislature, any time somebody put out a proposal, somebody else said there had to be a better plan," he said. "I think Proposal 1 is the last, best chance to fix our roads." - Jase Bolger, now term limited from the legislature
$1.2 Billion more for roads without "raising taxes." The problem is it raises fuel taxes, and takes away sales tax on gasoline, and doesn't make it up anywhere. That's $1.2 Billion less a year for the school districts, which is a crushing decrease. There's very little political will to take that much away from schools to make roads better.
"On roads, as I saw my entire time in the Legislature, any time somebody put out a proposal, somebody else said there had to be a better plan," he said. "I think Proposal 1 is the last, best chance to fix our roads." - Jase Bolger, now term limited from the legislature
Why is it the schools are always threatened with reductions in funding? Let's take the money out of the welfare programs and leave the schools alone.
Jase should visit South Dakota and learn how other states fund road repair.
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Although it might be $700 or $800 Million more a year instead of $1.2 billion. 
