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Disagreeing with some of your half-baked ideas and values doesn't equate to not being "open minded" or "accepting".
Thank you for voicing what conservatives have been trying to get through to liberals for years. I mean, if we're being fair, this has to apply to both viewpoints, right? Disagreeing with some of your half-baked ideas and values doesn't make conservatives not open minded or accepting, just disagreeing with you. That is allowed.
I live twenty minutes from Ann Arbor and my daughter graduated from U of M Ann Arbor last year. Much of Ann Arbor is tolerant only of others who share their viewpoint and dismiss others as hopelessly out of touch. If you can't see this, you aren't well acquainted with Ann Arbor at all.
Something else, tangentially, but probably off topic. Many blacks vote democrat mainly because the issue of race (and many whites vote republican because the issue of race). If blacks did not see race as a major issue in their lives, democrats would not be getting 90% of the black vote, but more like 60-70. In fact, at one time, still riding the waves of the party of Lincoln and emancipation, the majority of blacks actually voted Republican. My father would never vote for a Republican, but other than the issue of race and being a member of Teamsters, all his beliefs seemed to align with conservative mantra.
Political parties are "package deals". We have a two party system and hence many people pick a party based upon one or two core interest of theirs. Thus, you have the phenomenon of people supporting the package to support that one issue, which is usually a vested interest financially and or emotionally. Hence, if each party has 15 issues, each antithetical to the opposition parties position, one might put such a heavy weight on a few issues that they choose to vote for the party based upon agreeing on those 2 or 3 issues, while disagreeing on he other 12 or 13 (meaning that the side with the other party on those issues). The fallacy of composition is apropos here. In other words, its really a fallacy to call yourself a democrat when you disagree with the majority of their platform but support the party only because of one or two issues, for what is true of a part cannot be assumed true for the whole. There really needs to be about 9 or 10 political parties to represent the all the larger issues people hold dear, due to many people being one or two issues voters..
Hence, my point about Michigan being a red state is that many Michigan Democrats disagree with the package as a whole, but support the party because of one or two issues. Long story short.....conservatism and liberalism are general beliefs and Republican and Democrat is a voting choice. Conservatives do not always vote republicans and liberals do not always vote Democrat, when people voting choice is influenced by only a few issues.
For those who don't know.....I am NOT a republican or conservative. I am not a democrat or liberal either. I guess that makes me NOTHING...in America. Regardless, I seek to be a truth teller.....and many people don't like such people.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-18-2017 at 01:42 PM..
I live twenty minutes from Ann Arbor and my daughter graduated from U of M Ann Arbor last year. Much of Ann Arbor is tolerant only of others who share their viewpoint and dismiss others as hopelessly out of touch. If you can't see this, you aren't well acquainted with Ann Arbor at all.
I have lived IN Ann Arbor for 33 years. You are not describing "Much of Ann Arbor" you are describing the 48109 zip code and several blocks surrounding it.
Last edited by craig11152; 05-18-2017 at 01:34 PM..
Core cities in America almost always vote democrat. The problem is, however, that the vast, vast majority of the population of most states do not live in principle cities. If you add up the population of Michigan's 5 largest cities, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint...you get about 1.2 million people. However, there are 10 million people in the state. I do not know what those numbers are in regards to voting age population, but the ratio is about the same.
Warren and Sterling Heights are the 3rd and 4th largest cities in Michigan. Also, it would not surprise me if Livonia and Clinton were both larger than Flint at this point. I think some people underestimate just how many people live in the suburbs of Detroit. I can promise you ti's more than 1.2 million - which doesn't even get you to the population of Oakland County alone. If we're discussing only "core cities" because of the general trend in which African American population centers tend to vote, well you've probably got a larger African American population in Southfield and Pontiac than you do in Lansing and Ann Arbor, and Southfield and Pontiac are suburbs.
Core cities in America almost always vote democrat. The problem is, however, that the vast, vast majority of the population of most states do not live in principle cities. If you add up the population of Michigan's 5 largest cities, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint...you get about 1.2 million people. However, there are 10 million people in the state. I do not know what those numbers are in regards to voting age population, but the ratio is about the same.
I meant more so they districts they represent. For example Wayne, Washtenaw, and Oakland county all add up to far more than just 1.2 million.
I meant more so they districts they represent. For example Wayne, Washtenaw, and Oakland county all add up to far more than just 1.2 million.
Ok...I get what you are saying and you are correct that they add up to way more people than that. I guess my point, after all this confusion, was that conservative is not synonymous with voting republican and liberal is not synonymous to voting democrat (although the latter is less true than the former in Michigan). Hence, its my belief that among likely voters, Michigan is traditionally a red state based upon tending to be more conservative than liberal on the balance of issues, with the majority voting Democrat from time to time because of labor interest which usurp ones political ideology (if it happens to be conservatism). I mean, this is traditionally a union state.....and unions go blue......but a lot of those people, especially in the suburbs, are conservatives really.
What is true of a part is not thus necessarily true for the whole. A team having a great player does not make for a great team. A great team does not mean that an individual player on the team is great. Ergo, a person who votes based upon one or two issues they agree with, which happen to be positions supported by democrats, does not make them liberals (in ideology), if the vast majority of the overall positions they support are championed by Republicans.
Its hard for me to see the state of Michigan as "progressive" with the level of polarization and inequality, some of the worst in the nation, that exists. It's not one big happy family (not that liberalism would create such). I mean, attitudes in Michigan are closer to that of Mississippi.....than Minnesota, but Mississippi is not and was not ever a heavily unionized state, so it always votes red.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-18-2017 at 03:25 PM..
Ok...I get what you are saying and you are correct that they add up to way more people than that. I guess my point, after all this confusion, was that conservative is not synonymous with voting republican and liberal is not synonymous to voting democrat (although the latter is less true than the former in Michigan). Hence, its my belief that among likely voters, Michigan is traditionally a red state based upon tending to be more conservative than liberal on the balance of issues, with the majority voting Democrat from time to time because of labor interest which usurp ones political ideology (if it happens to be conservatism). I mean, this is traditionally a union state.....and unions go blue......but a lot of those people, especially in the suburbs, are conservatives really.
What I found ironic about the 2016 Michigan results is that the Republican won the Grand Rapids area by a narrower margin than Mitt Romney had in 2012. Kent County shifted 2.5% in favor of Hillary Clinton. The big swing was in Metro Detroit with it doing an almost 10 point shift toward the Republican. IMO that lends credence to your position about the labor vote being the reason Michigan was considered a blue state. The western side of the state has never been a union stronghold. That also shows the population influx in the Grand Rapids area has started to dilute the stereotypical social conservatives W. Mich is known for.
What I found ironic about the 2016 Michigan results is that the Republican won the Grand Rapids area by a narrower margin than Mitt Romney had in 2012. Kent County shifted 2.5% in favor of Hillary Clinton. The big swing was in Metro Detroit with it doing an almost 10 point shift toward the Republican. IMO that lends credence to your position about the labor vote being the reason Michigan was considered a blue state. The western side of the state has never been a union stronghold. That also shows the population influx in the Grand Rapids area has started to dilute the stereotypical social conservatives W. Mich is known for.
Yep. I totally agree. Trump actually appealed to those interest by talking about reducing fuel requirement regulations and speaking about doing away with NAFTA and other trade agreements that many in the labor interest see as linked to hurting the industry. He said he wanted to bring jobs back to America. He appealed to those conservative democrats, many who did not like Hilary for her support of NAFTA, among other things. Trump was offering something while Hilary was the same old same old....and look what happened to the industry under the same old. The question now is will Trump deliver on his promise.
Yep. I totally agree. Trump actually appealed to those interest by talking about reducing fuel requirement regulations and speaking about doing away with NAFTA and other trade agreements that many in the labor interest see as linked to hurting the industry. He said he wanted to bring jobs back to America. He appealed to those conservative democrats, many who did not like Hilary for her support of NAFTA, among other things. Trump was offering something while Hilary was the same old same old....and look what happened to the industry under the same old. The question now is will Trump deliver on his promise.
I actually saw several "Teamsters for Trump" bumper stickers during the campaign. How many of those old union guys would be turning over in their graves over that? It shocked me, that's for sure. For anyone who grew up in NW Ohio/SE Michigan, AKA auto country, unions don't do Republican. Period.
I have lived IN Ann Arbor for 33 years. You are not describing "Much of Ann Arbor" you are describing the 48109 zip code and several blocks surrounding it.
I hear you, and you would know. I'm just basing what I said on the many, many times I have been in Ann Arbor over the past several years both for work and because my daughter was a student there. I was a hospice nurse in AA for a few years and went into hundreds of homes throughout the city and the outlying areas during that time. The vast majority of the people that I visited within the city itself and their families tended to be secular/liberal as opposed to religious/conservative, which was much more prevalent in the outlying areas like Chelsea, Saline, and Howell. Also, racial minorities tended to be much more religious as a whole, both blacks and hispanics (you know this as a hospice nurse because spirituality/religion comes into play a lot at the end of life), but still would have fallen into that "Michigan Democrat" demographic where they voted the straight party line in spite of the disparity between what their churches taught and what the party platform was.
My boss at the hospice used to say that Ann Arbor was "24 square miles surrounded by reality". I realize that the blatant liberalism is most prevalent around the downtown/central campus area (Hash Bash, anyone?) but I do think that as a whole, AA tends to be a very secular, liberal city in general. I never got any hate for not being liberal there, but I never was one to spout my political views or opinions either. Make love, not war.
Last edited by canudigit; 05-18-2017 at 04:31 PM..
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