Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Look into the most Western end of the UP. Ironwood for example. Michigan as a whole is middle of the road. Maybe in some remote town in the UP you would be happy.
I'm no Obama homer. I consider him to have been a mediocre president who inherited a terrible situation from Bush-43, but if I look at what happened under Obama's 8 years of leadership I see 360,000 unemployed Michiganders in 2008, 740,000 in 2009, and 240,000 at the end of 2016 (and before someone makes the argument that real unemployment is actually higher {whatever that means..}, the employment numbers for those 3 dates are 4.59 million, 4.22 million, and 4.61 million - Michigan labor force grew under Obama, not much, but it grew - and it grew by roughly what the state population did). I also see the auto makers posting record profits in 2014, again in 2015, and then once more in 2016, so I'm not terribly sure what is meant by "Look what happened under the same old."
Unless you're indicating that the idea of wealth concentration and the expectation of associated greater capitalist investment creating a situation of trickle down wealth for blue collar workers is objectively stupid, in which case I'd agree. Reaganomics do not work in their intended manner. It incentivizes cheap (overseas) labor while maintaining domestic prices at just the right point where regular people can afford to live, but not thrive. Trump is the ultimate capitalist. He's also the ultimate salesman. He married these two talents of his in order to convince large groups of people that things are terrible and he would make them better with his crony capitalistic agendas.
At this point it's far to early to tell what a Trump economy looks like, and I'm open (and hopeful) to being proven wrong, but my expectation is further wealth concentration for the 1% while the middle and working classes experience the same old story of just barely getting by. If we wanted to see real change we'd look into a situation where one is rewarded fairly and directly for their work and labor, rather than based on what the wealthy capitalist has influenced market conditions to suggest work and labor are worth.
Also, Michigan is not culturally the same as Indiana, Ohio and Non-Chicago Illinois. It is much more culturally similar to Wisconsin and Minnesota. This is due to who settled the areas. The Upper Midwest was settled by New Englanders, who were culturally distinct from the settlers of Greater Appalachia. They held different values, different governments. Michigan is, at its heart, a liberal state - much like Wisconsin and Minnesota - this is due to its New England influence, which has only been moderated by an influx of Southern and Appalachian immigration over the course of the last century, but overall Michigan is still very much a "Yankee" state. That is its roots. There's a great book about this called American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America, if you're interested.
No....I am one who believes that Presidents have little power over the economy. Taxing and spending are generally the biggest fiscal policy influences on the economy and that is the function of the legislative branch, not the executive, although the executive can push such an agenda. Thus, I was hardly bashing Obama or linking Obama to anything good or bad.......because I don't and really I am apolitical. I think most of the problems we have are not rooted in the differences between the two parties, but rather, the things they actually agree on.....like our capitalistic model.
The same old same old is the overall reduction of the standard of living of union workers in Michigan, either via job loss or loss of pay and benefits. Many jobs returned to Michigan, but they did not pay as well as many of the jobs that left. The auto industry was saved, which was a GOOD thing, meaning that it saved union jobs....however, new workers coming into these companies come in at much lower rates of pay and much less generous benefit packages. Again, I am not blaming this on politics, but again, if you are a union person you see things continually getting worse, relative to the way things used to be for union members.
Many of these people blame NAFTA......and they saw the same old same old position with NAFTA under Obama....as well as a proposed new trade agreement....the PTP that they may have felt would even further threaten US manufacturing jobs. Trump played to their insecurities. He talked about bringing jobs back to America and doing away with NAFTA. For the record, I did not nor do I believe he has the ability to do these things....but if you are already really a conservative at heart on vote democrat because of labor interest, yet, still see your ranks diminishing and weakening under Democrats, you might just give the guy a chance and see what he can do.
I kind of also see jobs and employment as deceptive. I mean, you can create full employment, today, theoretically, simply by reducing the pay of existing workers enough to hire a boatload of other workers. Its unfortunate but the way I see the trends is that after the last several recessions, the good paying jobs lost were not replaced with equally paying jobs in the recovery. Again, this is an apolitical assessment. I have no dog and the fight. To me we are creating a lot of low paying jobs that have replaced a lot of good paying union factory jobs.
Michigan used to have one of the highest median incomes in the nation. Now its in the middle. However, low wages seem to attract growth in certain sectors of the economy as companies do not want to expand where there is high labor cost. Again, just noting what I see and not advocating for any party. I mean, that is why Jobs went to Mexico and why China is booming....low wages.
I also tend to think that America, as whole, would be more like Canada and Europe......if not for its history with racial minorities. I think conservatism and the republican party is often or sometimes a Trojan Horse for anti-minority. People want small government because they see racial minorities disproportionately sucking up their tax dollars in the transfer payments to society and redistribution. Some see groups as lazy and wanting something for nothing and hence they want to reduce the size of government to thwart such policies. Harvard University did a study that conclude that race was one of the major reasons that the US does not have a European style welfare and social policy system.
I think most people are basically good, hard working and want a better life for themselves and their offspring....the problem is often "isms", however.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-19-2017 at 09:25 AM..
Also, Michigan is not culturally the same as Indiana, Ohio and Non-Chicago Illinois. It is much more culturally similar to Wisconsin and Minnesota. This is due to who settled the areas. The Upper Midwest was settled by New Englanders, who were culturally distinct from the settlers of Greater Appalachia. They held different values, different governments. Michigan is, at its heart, a liberal state - much like Wisconsin and Minnesota - this is due to its New England influence, which has only been moderated by an influx of Southern and Appalachian immigration over the course of the last century, but overall Michigan is still very much a "Yankee" state. That is its roots.
At some point the influx of that Southern and Appalachian immigration trumps or at least rivals the settlers of the late 18th century and 19th century. Those more recent settlers, and their children and children's children are the ones voting now. I might add at least some of those auto workers moved up north rather than back home when they retired.
The situation in Ann Arbor is both better and worse than is being described here.
There are many good people in Ann Arbor. In general, Ann Arbor has a lot to offer. It seems like a clean, functional, and upscale town on the surface. The University of Michigan is academically solid and offers many cultural opportunities to the general public. There are a good number of professional jobs.
However, there is a large segment of the population in Ann Arbor which is indeed hostile to conservatives. This element is also not restricted to obviously political activities and other places you'd expect to find Leftists. There's a good chance that they dominate the activities and social groups that interest you.
Many of the Leftists in Ann Arbor are of the modern, militant variety. It's risky to interact with this type of Leftist unless you are very familiar with their views and ideologies. Even if you think of yourself as a Democrat or generally left-leaning, there's a good chance that you don't fully understand this strain of Leftism. Some key points to be aware of:
* They expect you to already know their version of Leftist ideology. Never mind that most Americans are unfamiliar with this ideology and wouldn't agree with it even if they were familiar with it.
* They don't tolerate dissent. At best, you may get one verbal warning to immediately discontinue whatever action or viewpoint offended them. Even that's not guaranteed.
* If you are in a group considered "privileged", keeping your political views to yourself may not be good enough. You may be assumed to have the wrong views by default unless you actively express the "correct" views.
* They don't really distinguish between the hard right, compassionate conservatives, and moderates. Many don't even believe there is such a thing as a moderate.
* Shunning is likely. It's also far from a worst case scenario. This breed of Leftist often believes in damaging their political opponents' careers and reputations.
The culture of Ann Arbor is passive-aggressive. This is good and bad in this situation. It's good because overt violence, as has happened in Berkeley recently, is less likely. It's bad because it may not even be immediately obvious that you're being shunned.
I'm only one data point, but I'm a political moderate who was openly opposed to the Presidential candidacy of Donald J. Trump. I'm also openly Christian. I got the cold shoulder from many people in Ann Arbor. Even so, I met many quality people, especially at my Christian church and in professional groups.
It's not just conservatives who need to be very careful in Ann Arbor. It's almost as unsafe for moderates. It's not even safe for liberals who deviate from the modern, militant strain of Leftism found there.
In all fairness, in 2017, Ann Arbor is far from unique in this regard. Many American cities offering a similar level of professional and cultural options are as bad or worse.
The situation in Ann Arbor is both better and worse than is being described here.
There are many good people in Ann Arbor. In general, Ann Arbor has a lot to offer. It seems like a clean, functional, and upscale town on the surface. The University of Michigan is academically solid and offers many cultural opportunities to the general public. There are a good number of professional jobs.
However, there is a large segment of the population in Ann Arbor which is indeed hostile to conservatives. This element is also not restricted to obviously political activities and other places you'd expect to find Leftists. There's a good chance that they dominate the activities and social groups that interest you.
Many of the Leftists in Ann Arbor are of the modern, militant variety. It's risky to interact with this type of Leftist unless you are very familiar with their views and ideologies. Even if you think of yourself as a Democrat or generally left-leaning, there's a good chance that you don't fully understand this strain of Leftism. Some key points to be aware of:
* They expect you to already know their version of Leftist ideology. Never mind that most Americans are unfamiliar with this ideology and wouldn't agree with it even if they were familiar with it.
* They don't tolerate dissent. At best, you may get one verbal warning to immediately discontinue whatever action or viewpoint offended them. Even that's not guaranteed.
* If you are in a group considered "privileged", keeping your political views to yourself may not be good enough. You may be assumed to have the wrong views by default unless you actively express the "correct" views.
* They don't really distinguish between the hard right, compassionate conservatives, and moderates. Many don't even believe there is such a thing as a moderate.
* Shunning is likely. It's also far from a worst case scenario. This breed of Leftist often believes in damaging their political opponents' careers and reputations.
The culture of Ann Arbor is passive-aggressive. This is good and bad in this situation. It's good because overt violence, as has happened in Berkeley recently, is less likely. It's bad because it may not even be immediately obvious that you're being shunned.
I'm only one data point, but I'm a political moderate who was openly opposed to the Presidential candidacy of Donald J. Trump. I'm also openly Christian. I got the cold shoulder from many people in Ann Arbor. Even so, I met many quality people, especially at my Christian church and in professional groups.
It's not just conservatives who need to be very careful in Ann Arbor. It's almost as unsafe for moderates. It's not even safe for liberals who deviate from the modern, militant strain of Leftism found there.
In all fairness, in 2017, Ann Arbor is far from unique in this regard. Many American cities offering a similar level of professional and cultural options are as bad or worse.
It is bad at times, but I only really go downtown or to the fringes of downtown. However twice i have had people I do not know butt in to conversations over dinner with a friend and start angrily arguing then shouting at us. I have also had people come up to us ont eh street and start reciting their philosophical mantra. I have learned to never ever engage them. Do not answer, not even agree with them. Just look away and keep walking. They will move on shortly. It is rare certainly, and in both instances the bar/restaurant insisted they leave, but it was disturbing.
I love Ann arbor, but I think you are accurately describing an infection there that seems to be spreading out of control.
However I have almost never had this type of thing in Detroit, and Detroit now ffers more than Ann Arbor does.
It is probably 10 or 155 of the population at most I would guess (possibly more) but it is a loud, aggressive and active segment that is difficult to avoid.
At some point the influx of that Southern and Appalachian immigration trumps or at least rivals the settlers of the late 18th century and 19th century. Those more recent settlers, and their children and children's children are the ones voting now. I might add at least some of those auto workers moved up north rather than back home when they retired.
I would agree and they brought certain attitudes with them (not that they needed to be imported, however). Going from Michigan to Minnesota was a lot different. Minnesota was much less racially segregated and polarized and the people were super friendly (Minnesota Nice). Wisconsin.....I can see kind of being like Michigan though....especially around Milwaukee.
It is bad at times, but I only really go downtown or to the fringes of downtown. However twice i have had people I do not know butt in to conversations over dinner with a friend and start angrily arguing then shouting at us. I have also had people come up to us ont eh street and start reciting their philosophical mantra. I have learned to never ever engage them. Do not answer, not even agree with them. Just look away and keep walking. They will move on shortly. It is rare certainly, and in both instances the bar/restaurant insisted they leave, but it was disturbing.
I love Ann arbor, but I think you are accurately describing an infection there that seems to be spreading out of control.
However I have almost never had this type of thing in Detroit, and Detroit now ffers more than Ann Arbor does.
It is probably 10 or 155 of the population at most I would guess (possibly more) but it is a loud, aggressive and active segment that is difficult to avoid.
Wow. I find that fascinating. Are you guys serious? I have never really visited Ann Arbor so I have no clue. People just walk up to you and jump in your conversations like that? I have never experienced anything like that in my life...well maybe San Fransisco....but I never thought one could find that in Michigan.
The irony of someone who uses the word "leftist" as an insult accusing others of intolerance.
I have never seen someone in Ann Arbor but into other's conversations or visibly shun another person. People who live here have Trump bumper stickers on their cars and they are not vandalized. There's a liquor store on UM's campus with a "We Stand With Israel" sign that has been there for years in a place with semi-regular BDS actions.
I suspect that what REALLY happens to many of the people in this thread is that they feel triggered by overhearing conversations or seeing political actions around town that are hostile to their beliefs and views. It can suck to be a Christian and overhear someone make fun of Jesus or something in casual conversation, but that does not mean that people are going to pry the Jesus fish from your car or interrupt your conversation about church to tell you that GOD IS A LIE, OVERTHROW THE BURGEOISES. That is just not real. It's a college town, there are (still, in 2017) Bernie Sanders signs all over the damn place. The local Women's March and March for Science dwarfed those in much larger cities, including Detroit. If that is "threatening" to you, if you feel intimidated by being in a city where someone might casually call Trump a fascist within earshot, I might suggest that you are the one who has issues with tolerating differing viewpoints.
ETA: People also fundraise for the ACLU and Planned Parenthood on the streets here. Again, if being presented with people soliciting donations for those organizations disturbs you, I think you are beyond help in terms of understanding the irony of your stances.
Last edited by brodie734; 05-19-2017 at 10:22 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
