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Old 12-11-2018, 10:01 AM
 
8,539 posts, read 12,259,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
No, you don't lose your house in Detroit. There are so many delinquent that Wayne County and Detroit have no way to keep up. It's like a big enterprise/tax free zone. Enjoy.
Ha. Tell that to the thousands of people who lose their house every year.
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,701 posts, read 79,330,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usrname View Post
Yes.
'For real-estate property tax rates, we divided the “median real-estate tax payment” by the “median home price” in each state. We then used the resulting rates to obtain the dollar amount paid as real-estate tax on a house worth $184,700, the median value for a home in the U.S. as of 2016 according to the Census Bureau.'
In most of California, $187,000 will not even buy a trailer home in a trailer park. It certainly will not buy a house. They need ot adjust for location. $587,000 does not even get a house in the populated areas.
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Old 12-11-2018, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
In most of California, $187,000 will not even buy a trailer home in a trailer park. It certainly will not buy a house. They need ot adjust for location. $587,000 does not even get a house in the populated areas.
True, but they're just using averaged value per "unit" -- where the unit is 187K, US average. It could be be 100K, or 50K, or even 10K or 1K.
In reality, a lot of people in CA have their houses valued very low and under 187K because of Prop 13 cap on assessment, so paying low taxes...if it's been a while since the property had been purchased or if it's inherited.
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Old 12-11-2018, 05:09 PM
 
1,153 posts, read 1,039,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan View Post
"Very high" is relative, however. Right?

Michigan ranks 43rd on this list (1 being the lowest):

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...y-taxes/11585/


So, yes, higher rate than most - however, real estate in Michigan is nowhere near the cost of many other areas, on average (Michigan has the 7th lowest median home value from that list).
I see people try to make this argument all the time. Of course it's low. The real estate in tax burdened areas is artificially depressed because of the high property taxes, not the other way around and not in spite of it.

One of the negatives of these high property taxes is that high property tax areas never appreciate in value relative to lower property tax areas, even with strong job markets. If the entire country is booming and real estate prices are going up (it does not happen in every single area, never does) the lower tax areas increase at a higher percentage, and thus a property owner who holds over the same period of time will get a higher nominal return than someone in a high tax area.

Think of it this way: all else being equal, who wins out? The heavily taxed house or the lightly taxed house?

All else being hypothetically equal, which one is worth paying more for? It would stand to reason that any subsequent buyer would value a lightly taxed house more than the same house with a higher tax, and the seller thus nets more from the sale.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmichigan View Post
Ha. Tell that to the thousands of people who lose their house every year.
A couple of thousand do but 36,000 will not have their homes taken away because the city can't keep up.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ncy/700005002/
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,760,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InchingWest View Post
I see people try to make this argument all the time. Of course it's low. The real estate in tax burdened areas is artificially depressed because of the high property taxes, not the other way around and not in spite of it.

One of the negatives of these high property taxes is that high property tax areas never appreciate in value relative to lower property tax areas, even with strong job markets. If the entire country is booming and real estate prices are going up (it does not happen in every single area, never does) the lower tax areas increase at a higher percentage, and thus a property owner who holds over the same period of time will get a higher nominal return than someone in a high tax area.

Think of it this way: all else being equal, who wins out? The heavily taxed house or the lightly taxed house?

All else being hypothetically equal, which one is worth paying more for? It would stand to reason that any subsequent buyer would value a lightly taxed house more than the same house with a higher tax, and the seller thus nets more from the sale.
I don't know about that. Some of the highest taxed areas in Michigan are also the most affluent, most educated, and in many instances the fastest appreciating (East Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Bloomfield Twp, Royal Oak, Farmington Hills, Ferndale, etc etc..), but some of the poorest and fastest depreciating areas also have the highest tax rates (Detroit and Highland Park for instance).

In my experience, the affluent areas will upvote any millage request that includes added parks, added recreation, added services (East Grand Rapids they vacuum up your leaves in the Fall and plow your sidewalks in the winter). It also in their minds helps safeguard from the "riff-raff" moving in. But poor areas losing population have increased their millages to help fill their budget holes created by so many people moving out, like Detroit, Flint, Highland Park.

Generally speaking it seems like the East Coast has the highest property tax rates. Places like upstate New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Maryland I have heard first hand how astronomical they are. Chicagoland also seems to have outrageous property taxes. And a lot of people from those states are moving to low tax states like Texas, North Carolina and Georgia.

But is there a direct correlation between low property taxes and high property value appreciation? There may be a heavy correlation between low taxes and high population growth, for sure. Whether that translates into appreciation? Not always.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:39 AM
 
367 posts, read 416,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I don't know about that. Some of the highest taxed areas in Michigan are also the most affluent, most educated, and in many instances the fastest appreciating (East Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Bloomfield Twp, Royal Oak, Farmington Hills, Ferndale, etc etc..), but some of the poorest and fastest depreciating areas also have the highest tax rates (Detroit and Highland Park for instance).

In my experience, the affluent areas will upvote any millage request that includes added parks, added recreation, added services (East Grand Rapids they vacuum up your leaves in the Fall and plow your sidewalks in the winter). It also in their minds helps safeguard from the "riff-raff" moving in. But poor areas losing population have increased their millages to help fill their budget holes created by so many people moving out, like Detroit, Flint, Highland Park.

Generally speaking it seems like the East Coast has the highest property tax rates. Places like upstate New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Maryland I have heard first hand how astronomical they are. Chicagoland also seems to have outrageous property taxes. And a lot of people from those states are moving to low tax states like Texas, North Carolina and Georgia.

But is there a direct correlation between low property taxes and high property value appreciation? There may be a heavy correlation between low taxes and high population growth, for sure. Whether that translates into appreciation? Not always.
Very true. Also, in low property tax states, the state and local governments have other ways/taxes to make up for any lost revenues. Overall tax burden + home (and auto, as in MI no-fault case) insurance rates have to be considered.
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:50 PM
 
8,539 posts, read 12,259,217 times
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
A couple of thousand do but 36,000 will not have their homes taken away because the city can't keep up.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ncy/700005002/
That story is over five years old. The Detroit Land Bank Authority is now seizing more and more homes, too. Houses with marketable value are being seized left and right through tax foreclosure. Where did you get your "couple thousand" number? Far more than that have been auctioned each year through their online auction. Sure, the County may not get to all tax foreclosed properties in a timely fashion, but the ones where foreclosure is delayed are ones where you certainly wouldn't want to live.

Detroit's property tax fiasco has been a problem for years. The City routinely denies tax assessment appeals (and makes it difficult for taxpayers to appeal in the first place) and the state fails to do its job in assuring that assessment values are pegged at the Constitutional requirement of 50% of true cash value. I used to own a house in Detroit and its assessment was five times higher than it legally should have been. Detroit has also been its own worst enemy. The City has torn down thousands of viable houses--some with only a broken window or kicked in door (which makes it open to trespass)--and has lost considerable tax base in the process. Many houses clearly need to be torn down, but the City has torn down so many fixable houses that it's a shame.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,760,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmichigan View Post
That story is over five years old. The Detroit Land Bank Authority is now seizing more and more homes, too. Houses with marketable value are being seized left and right through tax foreclosure. Where did you get your "couple thousand" number? Far more than that have been auctioned each year through their online auction. Sure, the County may not get to all tax foreclosed properties in a timely fashion, but the ones where foreclosure is delayed are ones where you certainly wouldn't want to live.

Detroit's property tax fiasco has been a problem for years. The City routinely denies tax assessment appeals (and makes it difficult for taxpayers to appeal in the first place) and the state fails to do its job in assuring that assessment values are pegged at the Constitutional requirement of 50% of true cash value. I used to own a house in Detroit and its assessment was five times higher than it legally should have been. Detroit has also been its own worst enemy. The City has torn down thousands of viable houses--some with only a broken window or kicked in door (which makes it open to trespass)--and has lost considerable tax base in the process. Many houses clearly need to be torn down, but the City has torn down so many fixable houses that it's a shame.
Alright alright bad example. My point was if you want to live somewhere and pay zero taxes, be prepared for the kind of community that will be.
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:53 AM
 
8,539 posts, read 12,259,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Alright alright bad example. My point was if you want to live somewhere and pay zero taxes, be prepared for the kind of community that will be.
Hey--I can agree with that.
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