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Old 05-11-2008, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
104 posts, read 416,134 times
Reputation: 61

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My personal opinion is that with today's global economy and consumers needing to save money, I think that the unions are hurting the Michigan economy. I have nothing against workers making a fair-livable wage, but some union workers have been grossly overpaid for far too long. As for the UAW in particular, the Big 3 have gotten themselves into their own hole. Their biggest concern right now is not just ridiculous labor costs, but also the ongoing costs of healthcare and pensions. For so many years, the Big Three have produced very poor quality (at one time) to average quality products,as of late, counting on American consumers coming back to buy replacement vehicles every 3-4 years. Today's consumers are looking for more longevity and better values. Many times, that leads consumers to foreign, particularly Japanese, brands. The foreign-owned automakers have put themselves in a good position. They are able to produce a quality product at a competitive cost. Since NAFTA, the foreign companies must pay exorbitant import tariffs on imported goods, so they were smart and began producing vehicles in the United States, giving American workers jobs. True, they may not pay as much as UAW jobs, but still pay well. What have the Big Three done? They have been trying to maximize their profits and cut costs, so they are giving away American jobs to Canada and more recently Mexico. At one time, Canadian labor was less costly, but not so anymore. And the Big Three are still within NAFTA rules and avoiding import taxes. I still see may people with the "Be American, Buy American" crap bumper stickers. I own two Toyotas, both assembled in the US with more domestic content than many so-called American products. At least Toyota, Honda, MB, BMW, and others are trying to give jobs to Americans(for tax and logistical reasons), while the Big Three are shipping American jobs to foreign countries to save a buck and stuff their own pockets.

As for unions in general, I have always been a non-union employee, but worked in a shop that had unionized mechanics. That place was the biggest disaster. You couldn't even talk to an employee about their performance or lack thereof, without a union rep being present. I understand that unions at one time were needed, but I think that their day is gone. I also feel that all employees should be treated fairly and equitably, and also that MOST employers do a good job of this. I have never been treated so terribly by an employer that I needed another party to represent me. I have been unhappy with an employer and simply found another job, and then left. From my experience, in general, good employees, for the most part shouldn't have too much to worry about, though I'm sure there are exceptions. My mother lost her 20 year job last year, and was paid excessively for the work she did. Of course I felt bad for her, but the simple economics is that she was paid double what the job was really worth, and when you look at large companies, that can add up to a lot of money. One thing I must add, though, on that note...is the tendency of companies to cut labor costs for the sheer motive of stuffing the coffers and the pockets of their big execs. You know, cut 5,000 lower-rung blue-collar jobs, so that the CEO and other execs can post record-breaking profits, and then get multi-million dollar bonuses for doing "a great job in boosting profits." I work for a small company, with a total of 34 employees, and we are facing tough economic times right now. We are a service-oriented business with 10-15 service vehicles on the road at any given time, and with gas costs at $3.85 a gallon, the company is feeling the pinch and are needing to either increase revenues or reduce costs. With competition being so close in this business, it has come down to a matter of reducing costs. We have all been working shorter work weeks lately, but are all still working. Believe me, none of the owners of our company is living "high on the hog," and they have realized that having the employees work a few less hours now until things pick up, is definitely better than firing employees.
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Old 05-11-2008, 06:47 PM
 
136 posts, read 481,003 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggles603 View Post
...You can get a made in mexico fender standard stratocaster, for $400, while a fender american standard strat would cost you $1000. They're the same guitar but one costs significantly more. You can't put blame on the consumer for buying the cheaper one.
No, but I do blame government for taking 40% of what Americans produce for the right to work here, while allowing imports into the country with little more than a couple bucks federal tax revenue on the tiny profit an online retailer made. Other countries are just glad to have their people working and money rolling in. They chose to tax the consumer instead. We make producers pay most of the bills and then let tax-free imports drive them out of business.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:52 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,093 times
Reputation: 10
Default What positive effect have they had?

I've heard time and time again it is the unions that are making sure that the workers are making a fair wage. What I have a hard time believing is that this is a fair wage when many do not possess any additional skills other than showing up for work on time. There are many skilled trades that make far less than the average line worker but yet the UAW still demands more. The strike at the Delta plant is evidence enough of that. When $14 dollars an hour to start at job that doesn't require additional schooling or accreditation isn't enough then it is time to look through the local classifieds for a dose of reality.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Midwest America
195 posts, read 969,652 times
Reputation: 108
Just wondering, do companies like Toyota and Honda pay their workers the same as UAW employees? I wonder what they make.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,549 posts, read 6,598,036 times
Reputation: 7385
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
Just wondering, do companies like Toyota and Honda pay their workers the same as UAW employees? I wonder what they make.
Toyota's total pay package at Georgetown, KY (non-unionized) last year was 15% higher than the average UAW worker's payout nationally. Main reason is that Toyota has bonus pools, so in a good year, the workers make more, but they can make less in a bad year, like most workers in any capitalist economy.

VW of America just moved their corporate offices here, to Northern Virginia, where we have no auto industry knowledge, from Detroit, because Virginia is a right-to-work state. Kentucky is not right-to-work but is considering passing legislation to make it so because they are very worried about losing future auto plants to Tennessee and the Carolinas.

Texas has added 36,000 manufacturing jobs the last three years because it's a right-to-work state, and could also attract more jobs from Great lakes states over the next few years.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Midwest America
195 posts, read 969,652 times
Reputation: 108
Thanks Thesegoto11, since Toyota and Honda seem to be turning big profits every year, I assume their workers are mighty happy.

It disappoints me that the answer to Big 3 profitability, is UAW workers posting "Out of a job yet, Keep Buying Foreign" on their cars. I think the problem lies with increased competitiveness such as much higher quality and higher standards. I'm not saying that foreign cars are all awesome, but I believe there must be a good reason why Toyota and Honda continually experience high gains year over year and the Big 3 do not.. I, more than anyone else would LOVE to see the Big 3 become global leaders, but I don't see that happening. I think the U.S. auto industry is facing a bleak, moribund future if they do not do some serious clean up.

Also, since I am somewhat ignorant, can you please explain what a Right-To-Work state means?

Thank you!
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:21 PM
 
136 posts, read 481,003 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
... I believe there must be a good reason why Toyota and Honda continually experience high gains year over year and the Big 3 do not..
It's called legacy costs.
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Cortland, Ohio
3,343 posts, read 10,896,283 times
Reputation: 1586
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
Thanks Thesegoto11, since Toyota and Honda seem to be turning big profits every year, I assume their workers are mighty happy.

It disappoints me that the answer to Big 3 profitability, is UAW workers posting "Out of a job yet, Keep Buying Foreign" on their cars. I think the problem lies with increased competitiveness such as much higher quality and higher standards. I'm not saying that foreign cars are all awesome, but I believe there must be a good reason why Toyota and Honda continually experience high gains year over year and the Big 3 do not.. I, more than anyone else would LOVE to see the Big 3 become global leaders, but I don't see that happening. I think the U.S. auto industry is facing a bleak, moribund future if they do not do some serious clean up.

Also, since I am somewhat ignorant, can you please explain what a Right-To-Work state means?

Thank you!
It's because foreign management knows how to run a business. They use all the aspects of total quality management (Do-It-Right the first time, continuous improvement, being customer centered, and teamwork and empowerment) and then some. I'm not saying American management doesn't use TQM, lean, Kaizen, Six Sigma and so on, they just don't incorporate all the things the foreign companies do.

The Japanese plan 100 years into the future, where American management only looks at the here and now and making the shareholders happy. Japanese executives also get paid a fraction of what American executives get. The Japanese also work w/their entire supply chain and they maintain good relations w/suppliers. I can't say the same for companies like GM, who strong-arm their suppliers into quoting Chinese labor wages to win new business!!!!!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a former Delphi worker (also business management major) here in Ohio, I've seen how not to run a business. Some departments here in Warren had one foreman for as little as 4 employees.

Also, talk about not firing Union folks..........i've seen the most useless, internet surfing, lazy, salary people keep there jobs here year after year when they did nothing!!! I worked in engineering for a while and half of those people just sat around bs'ing, talking on the phone, and buying stuff online. I"m not saying all of them did, but a pretty good number of them. Not to mention the high school educated secretaries that got paid $60k/year. The only time they ever fired salary people was when they got caught stealing. I actually only know of one foreman that got fired because he got caught stealing a company laptop. The biggest problem w/that place was that they didn't follow their own policies and procedures. If they would have followed them they could have fired anyone that needed it. Because they never set a precedent they could barely fire anyone, they would get sued, union or not.

The Delphi Division i worked for was profitable (Packard Electric) and the union (IUE-CWA) and management had pretty good relations. Not to mention, we had a competitive contract compared to the UAW. We had a 3-tier pay scale w/the lowest tier making only 55% of traditional wages, the 2nd and 3rd tiers also had an 80-20 healthcare plan. Were we overpaid for what we did???? Yes, but we were all willing to take $5-$10/hour pay cuts and pay for our healthcare. When the union brought this to the company they didn't even want to even negotiate. This is because management had a plan since the early 90s to close most of the Warren operations and move our jobs to china and Mexico. Which, BTW they have been doing since the late 70s.

In 30 years our workforce went from over 15k to 3,900. For management to finish their plan they had to find a way to get around the union contracts. They did this by filing for bankruptcy in 2005. Otherwise they would have been making too much money in Warren to warrant closing the place and shipping the rest of the jobs overseas.

The thing that makes me sick is the manipulation of the bankruptcy system. Delphi filed for bankruptcy the day before the law was to change. Under the old system (the one Delphi filed under) a global company could file bankruptcy on only it's U.S. operations with out filing on the rest of the company. Therefore, even though Delphi as a whole was profitable, they filed only on their U.S. operations. If they were to file now they probably wouldn't be eligible.

Oh well, now they can't exit bankruptcy because no one will bale them out. I don't feel bad for those jerks at all!!! Everyone also forgets about the SEC investigation and accounting scandal that those jack***s were involved in. BTW, none of them are serving jail-time for it either!

The only people i feel sorry for are the people who couldn't take buyouts and retirements because they have families to support (there were only 650 people left after it was all over) or because they didn't qualify for retirement. The only people i know that stayed are the ones who need the health insurance or they are too old to be retrained and/or needed to stay in the area. I don't know any 40 or 50 year old people that can go back to school and get a job in this area. Many of these people have to stay here due to family circumstances and we don't have many jobs, even if you do have a college degree.

Alright, i know that was a little long-winded, but i don't blame everything on the unions and hourly people. There is always more to the story.

Last edited by CortlandGirl79; 05-13-2008 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,549 posts, read 6,598,036 times
Reputation: 7385
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
Also, since I am somewhat ignorant, can you please explain what a Right-To-Work state means?
Right to work means employees cannot be forced to join a union, or be forced to pay union dues. The term grew out of the Taft-Harley act of '47, and can only be enforced at the state, not the municipal level. So either your state is right to work or it's not.

It is a major issue in the construction and manufacturing industries, and the leading reason why the south is picking up auto plants. All 11 states of the confederacy are right-to-work as well as the strip from OK to ND, Wyoming, and a couple others like Nevada and Arizona.

Here in Virginia, many construction companies won't work across the river in Maryland, where it costs more to put up a building because its a forced-union state, and where the workers actually make less money. Forced-union does not mean all employees belong to unions, but that a union can require an employer to only hire only union employees or employees willing to pay union dues.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Cortland, Ohio
3,343 posts, read 10,896,283 times
Reputation: 1586
Looks like the right-to-work states are loosing jobs to Mexico and China too. I just got this in an email:
Quote:
Hayes Lemmerz International Inc., the world's largest maker of automotive wheels, plans to close an aluminum-wheel plant in Gainesville, Ga., that employs about 290 people.
I'm wondering if this plant is union or non-union, couldn't find it online.
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