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Old 06-20-2022, 02:11 AM
 
56 posts, read 41,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather67 View Post
Nothing against Saginaw Valley State University, but I suspect that Michigan State, U of M, and Western are all larger.
One thing that all of the schools which you named have going for them is that they are, for the most part, integrated into the surrounding communities. Saginaw Valley is not, and that's one of its greatest weaknesses. A suburban campus isn't a huge draw for as many people as it used to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
I know someone who moved from Cincinnati to Midland to work at Dow Corning.
Dow is one of those rare employers that pulls talent from outside communities. I'm not sure how things have been since the merger with DuPont, but this was definitely true at one point in time. Midland definitely draws in more outsiders than Bay City and Saginaw. That being said, it's worth knowing that population growth there flatlined between 2010-2020.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
People go where the work is. Metro areas are large for a reason.
That's true, but a certain set of variables made things the way they were, and some of those things have changed, leading to the outcome we see now (smaller metros in this and some other parts of the country losing population). It's strange to me that there are CSAs with ~400,000 people which are still hemorrhaging people. It's not as if MBS is particularly undesirable, yet people continue to demonstrate otherwise by voting with their feet.
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Old 06-20-2022, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,244 posts, read 8,158,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan91 View Post
That's true, but a certain set of variables made things the way they were, and some of those things have changed, leading to the outcome we see now (smaller metros in this and some other parts of the country losing population). It's strange to me that there are CSAs with ~400,000 people which are still hemorrhaging people. It's not as if MBS is particularly undesirable, yet people continue to demonstrate otherwise by voting with their feet.
What opportunities exist in these smaller metro areas? If I am in Midland, Bay City or Saginaw what career options exist? Detroit and Grand Rapids seem logical destinations for job seekers in Michigan.

When I left Michigan in 2008 there was no opportunity in my county (Branch) and Michigan itself was in dire condition. It was so bad I tried getting a job at an adult bookstore and I saw their drawer filled with applications. Sad time.

Since that time I left Michigan as did friends and family. As it happens some of them returned to Michigan and some folks I met elsewhere moved to Michigan. All of them went to Grand Rapids or Detroit metro because that is where the work was.

Hoping to make the glorious return myself but need to research how I can parlay the career I picked up in Arizona to a new gig back home.
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Old 06-21-2022, 07:48 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
4,381 posts, read 3,112,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nattering Heights View Post
I don't see much value in college degrees now. Many graduates can't get adequate jobs to pay student loans, with frequent suicides. Loan default is starting to shrink the college racket. The smarter kids choose more practical training for less money. Regardless of education, the shift towards big metropolises will eventually reverse as energy expenses rise. The need for locally available food will limit population concentration.
'Frequent suicides' is probably a bit of an overstatement.
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Old 06-21-2022, 10:59 PM
 
56 posts, read 41,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
What opportunities exist in these smaller metro areas?
Similarly sized population centers in the American West have continued to grow. I want to blame the movement of people to large metros on the shift from a manufacturing economy to one focused on knowledge and services, but that seems to ignore those gains experienced in the West. If small cities there can add people in this modern economy, then it becomes difficult to understand why cities in the Great Lakes region continue to experience no or negative population growth. In many places, the population has remained stagnant since Roger and Me came out. Hasn't it been long enough for these places to regain a competitive edge?
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Louisville
4,953 posts, read 5,111,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan91 View Post
Similarly sized population centers in the American West have continued to grow. I want to blame the movement of people to large metros on the shift from a manufacturing economy to one focused on knowledge and services, but that seems to ignore those gains experienced in the West. If small cities there can add people in this modern economy, then it becomes difficult to understand why cities in the Great Lakes region continue to experience no or negative population growth. In many places, the population has remained stagnant since Roger and Me came out. Hasn't it been long enough for these places to regain a competitive edge?
It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. To use the logic you are employing one also would need to assume that smaller metro's in the west, and smaller metro's in the Great Lakes grew at the same time, and under similar economic conditions. This simply isn't the case. You're talking about cities that have grown at very different times and under very different economic circumstances.

The economic drivers that created MBS/Flint/Youngstown/Scranton ect. are not the same economic drivers that created the cities in other regions. The disinvestment of those economic drivers in these older industrial cities is happening faster than the reinvestment needed to incentivize population growth. The cities specifically in the Southeast and west have much different and in most cases more modernized economies. They are in states that tend to be much more aggressive in their attempts to attract and retain the investment needed to grow them. Not to mention the less tangible factor of climate, which is a significant advantage over the cold/gloomy Great Lakes winters. In order for an older/declining great lakes city like Saginaw to grow again, it needs to offer economic opportunities to attract new residents. It also needs to create a cultural and built environment enticing enough for a person in the modern workforce to move there in spite of the climate. That's much more difficult to do than it seems. Only a handful of northern industrial cities have truly made that transition. They typically had more diversified economies, and were less dependent on one or two employers to begin with.

You don't even need to leave Michigan to see the difference. In the 1940s Flint was larger, wealthier and more prosperous than Grand Rapids. Today Grand Rapids is more than twice as large and on another planet economically. What do you think the difference was? I would wager it will similarly apply to the reasons MBS has struggled to transition over the last 50 years.

Last edited by mjlo; 06-22-2022 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 07-19-2022, 01:23 PM
 
1,131 posts, read 1,473,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan91 View Post
That's true, but a certain set of variables made things the way they were, and some of those things have changed, leading to the outcome we see now (smaller metros in this and some other parts of the country losing population). It's strange to me that there are CSAs with ~400,000 people which are still hemorrhaging people. It's not as if MBS is particularly undesirable, yet people continue to demonstrate otherwise by voting with their feet.
I think MBS is undesirable. For one, there’s nothing to make people want to move here. So you’re not getting outsiders. And there’s nothing to keep people here. With the exception of the bay coastline the scenery is bland, the local economies are bad, the housing stock is either run-down or half a million dollars (not much middle ground), and aside from developing downtowns the local governments don’t seem to care about the other neighborhoods and neighborhood parks and attractions.

Midland is a bright spot, though.

But also, the tri-cities are super unhealthy thanks to all the industry. I think we have one of the highest rates of cancer in the country. I don’t know that lots of people are aware of that, so it may not factor into the population movement much.
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Old 07-19-2022, 03:16 PM
 
1,289 posts, read 1,645,667 times
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The one thing that I think that the MBS region has going for it, is that its a lot closer to "up north" than the Metro Detroit region. There are a number of companies in the MBS region that offer good, well-paying jobs (white collar & blue collar), and have an affordable cost of living. You are within a 2-2.5 hour drive of most of Northern Michigan; you be in the UP in under 3 hours.

There are a lot of good recreation areas within an hour of MBS - fishing, hunting, ORV trails, bike rail trails, Lake Huron, Saginaw Bay. You are 1:20 to Higgens/Houghton Lake - easy day trip.


"Up North" has a lack of good paying jobs, and in may areas, particularly near the lakeshore and/or in resorter areas a housing crisis / lack of affordable housing.

You can circumvent that by living in the MBS area.
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Old 09-04-2022, 01:58 PM
 
597 posts, read 272,807 times
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I read somewhere that Michigan has one of the highest percentages of native born residents of any state (around 80%) and the absolute highest percentage of people born in state who left and end up moving back. It seems like the vast majority of Michiganders never leave the state, those who do end up coming back. I imagine most of those people leaving the state entirely are from Detroit due to crime and maybe they're taking their businesses with them
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Old 09-04-2022, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Niceville, FL
11,819 posts, read 20,310,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuebor View Post
I haven't looked up the data either, but Lansing, Kalamazoo, and of course Ann Arbor seem to be retaining or attracting more educated people than they lose. Even Muskegon has seen some improvement. I presume it's a combination of local job market plus local amenities/features/culture.
My theory on Muskegon is that it’s starting to pick up the creatives who are getting priced out of Grand Rapids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post

The cities specifically in the Southeast and west have much different and in most cases more modernized economies. They are in states that tend to be much more aggressive in their attempts to attract and retain the investment needed to grow them.
The numbers for the Southeast are skewed by Florida, North Carolina, and a few big key metro areas like Atlanta and Nashville. In between those places, you get a lot of depressed and very low income areas and several states like Mississippi and Louisiana that are seeing steady levels of out migration.

Alabama throws a lot of money at big flashy projects like the Mercedes plant but still significantly lags in median household income and percentage or people in poverty numbers compared to Michigan. They also have their share of seriously screwed up government- Jefferson County (metro Birmingham) was the largest municipal bankruptcy case in America until Detroit came along.

And like Flint, Jackson MS has an inoperable water system and fixing it is going to cost more than any Flint fixes.

The selling point of Western small metros is often outdoor recreation and high quality of life that draws in both under-30s and mid to late career professionals that can work from home. Look at Flagstaff or Grand Junction or St. George or Fort Collins and they’re commonly college towns adjacent to massive amounts of public lands and other recreational opportunities.
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Old 09-06-2022, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,255 posts, read 74,470,216 times
Reputation: 38281
Quote:
Originally Posted by NearFantastica View Post
I read somewhere that Michigan has one of the highest percentages of native born residents of any state (around 80%) and the absolute highest percentage of people born in state who left and end up moving back. It seems like the vast majority of Michiganders never leave the state, those who do end up coming back. I imagine most of those people leaving the state entirely are from Detroit due to crime and maybe they're taking their businesses with them
I left because I hatred the weather and the mosquitos. Came back after 18 years in Southern California mostly because of family, but for a myriad of other reasons as well. Most of our kids moved away after college. Not sure they will be coming back, but you never know. I was 100% certain I woudl never come back.



Michigan is cleaner, greener, less crowded ,less living in a beehive, no real waiting in lines or traffic, more affordable, more varied weather (California weather got boring for my wife).


Now all I hear from friends and family in warmer states is how they have to get out of there. They would rather be cold than hot all the time.
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