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Old 06-10-2008, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Sparta, TN
865 posts, read 1,712,134 times
Reputation: 1012

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H1B visas are limited to 3 years but are routinely extended to 6 years. The number per year allowed was supposed to be 65,000.

Cap was raised to support:
2001: 195,000
2002: 195,000
2003: 195,000
2004: 132,000
2005: 117,000
2006: 65,000
2007: 65,000
2008: 65,000

20,000 additional H1-B visas per year were granted for those having a Master's.

DOL's strategic plan states "H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."

The ultimate goal of an H-1B worker is to get a green card to reside here permanently. I'm not sure of the percentage who obtained that but I doubt many of those people left this country.

I don't have as much of a problem with companies taking advantage of the H-1B visa program as I do with our government allowing it and even promoting it when they know it's harming our own citizens. At least with illegal immigration -- there are laws against it even though there is little to any enforcement.

With regards to IT -- it's no longer a career choice that I'd recommend. Wages are being driven down. It takes constant training to keep up with the tech advances and employers aren't paying the bill for training when they can order up a fresh H-1B worker with whatever skill they want. It's a field where experience is not valued after a certain point because you can't have X years of experience in something that was just developed. If you're a recent college grad in something like Computer Science -- you'll find that it'll be hard getting a job because you don't have experience and if you are able to break into the field -- your skill set from college will be completely outdated fairly quickly and not easily transferable to any other career choice.

I'm not sure what jobs are immune from immigration problems at this point but IT isn't one of them.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Burkina Faso
422 posts, read 754,065 times
Reputation: 115
Who can blame them for trying to find workers not corrupted by the Michigan mindset?

Michigan is a state where you hire someone who dropped out of school in the 8th grade to turn a wrench like a monkey for $85,000 plus pension and healthcare for 35 hours a week. You better allow him to smoke on the job - practically unheard of everywhere else in America these days - otherwise he's liable to strike. He'll tell you on right on the first day on the job that he hates you, everything about you, and your company, but you better learn to love it because he can't be fired. If he decides to skip work for a couple of days, you have to tolerate it, unless you want the whole plant to go on strike. And when he comes, drunk, and groping the female employees, well you better learn to live with that too.

And those are the good days. These days he's saying, "Hey, you actually expect me to work? I want mine. I want a big house in the sunbelt. **** Michigan. Where's my $300,000 buyout? I want to be paid not to work! **** you, **** your company, and **** Michigan! I want mine!"

Whose going to hire workers like that?
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Midwest America
195 posts, read 969,652 times
Reputation: 108
Well said Paddington. I couldn't agree with you more.

Unions – as pompously self-righteous, self-important and arrogant as they are, are no longer a sustainable entity in Michigan (or the USA) for that matter. These companies – automotive for instance – used to be the pride and joy, the hallmark of companies in America. Today they have effectively been brought to their knees by gangster-like labor organizations who usurped and striked until they got what they wanted.

I don't feel any sympathy for unions. In fact I wish they would be done away with once and for all. Unions are like a blood-sucking leech stuck everywhere to the corporate bodies.. I dare compare their ideologies to an incurable cancer – contributing to their companies' slow but sure death.

Effectively they viciously gnaw at the hand that feeds their bloated stomachs.

**NO offense to union workers individually... Let me quite clear that I am taking issue with the Unions as an organization. It's not personal – it's thinking realistically about the survival of the American industry in the 21st century.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:44 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,466,176 times
Reputation: 22471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
Mark me down as 1 of those people complaining about the Indian and Chinese immigrants. These H1B visa immigrants are a major factor in the IT industry. They drive down wages and eliminate a lot of entry-level jobs which new college grads used to be able to pick up to gain experience.

The big lie is that any of these workers are needed in this country. There ARE qualified Americans in this country to take these jobs. Corporate America has simply discovered that rather than saving money by outsourcing jobs that they can still save money and have more control over the product by simply importing foreign workers. And to this date, they are not really getting any bad publicity for doing so as they would by shipping all of the work overseas. Even if you were to believe that we did not graduate enough of these workers to fill demand - what historically would happen is that wages would go up and colleges would churn out more graduates in these fields as a result. What is happening now is that we have a glut of IT workers who cannot find work and employers importing foreign labor. This drives wages down and provides no incentive for students to pursue these technical fields since they simply incur debt, cannot find a job, and find wages lower than if they had simply pursued a trade skill rather than a higher education.

The H1B visa program is to white collar workers what the illegal Mexican immigrant is to blue collar workers. The same old rational is used too -- there just aren't Americans to do these jobs. Don't believe it. It's just a way to get labor below market rate.

Cheap labor is what it's all about. I don't mind legal immigration for those who want to come here because inside, they are American at heart and want to join in and become one of us.

That's not what immigration lately has been about, must of it is about driving wages way down.

Sure it's easy to admire that $5.50 an hour factory worker who won't even expect overtime pay, but who pays the taxes then to support our big bloated government? And those $5.50 an hour factory workers aren't exactly obtaining their own medical insurance policies or contributing much to property taxes to support the schools their many children attend.

It's very easy to condemn the middle class taxpayers, but without the middle class then we become just like a third world country -- a few very wealthy and the rest very poor and that makes for a lot of instability.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:48 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,466,176 times
Reputation: 22471
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
Well said Paddington. I couldn't agree with you more.

Unions – as pompously self-righteous, self-important and arrogant as they are, are no longer a sustainable entity in Michigan (or the USA) for that matter. These companies – automotive for instance – used to be the pride and joy, the hallmark of companies in America. Today they have effectively been brought to their knees by gangster-like labor organizations who usurped and striked until they got what they wanted.

I don't feel any sympathy for unions. In fact I wish they would be done away with once and for all. Unions are like a blood-sucking leech stuck everywhere to the corporate bodies.. I dare compare their ideologies to an incurable cancer – contributing to their companies' slow but sure death.

Effectively they viciously gnaw the hand that feeds their bloated stomachs.
Do you feel sympathy for the $5 million a year CEO's? When too many companies shut down, there won't be that many jobs left for the CEO's either. For a while yet, they'll be able to manage one corporation into bankrupcy and still move on to their next $5 million a year job, then what?

And whatabout the stockholders whose retirement was tied up in stock market and 401Ks?

All it would have taken was for corporations to move out of the union states into right-to-work states, the country as a whole would still be doing fine, but they didn't want $10 an hour American workers, they wanted $0.35 Communist workers.
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Midwest America
195 posts, read 969,652 times
Reputation: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Do you feel sympathy for the $5 million a year CEO's? When too many companies shut down, there won't be that many jobs left for the CEO's either. For a while yet, they'll be able to manage one corporation into bankrupcy and still move on to their next $5 million a year job, then what?

And whatabout the stockholders whose retirement was tied up in stock market and 401Ks?

All it would have taken was for corporations to move out of the union states into right-to-work states, the country as a whole would still be doing fine, but they didn't want $10 an hour American workers, they wanted $0.35 Communist workers.
No of course I don't feel sorry for a $5 mil/yr C.E.O.. There is world of a difference between what is expected of a CEO and of a wrench-turner.

Here's what I believe: people get out of life, generally what they put into it.

So what if Joe Sixpack "wants" a big house, five cars, and be a rock superstar.. but barely graduated from high school? What makes him "deserve" $35/hr for something that a homeless man will do for $10?

A guy who spent six years in college to obtain an MBA, climbed the corporate ladder, and employed skills that most factory workers couldn't imagine even existed, definitely deserves to make more than someone who tightens nuts and bolts. I say kudos to the man who worked hard enough in life to get to the number one spot at a mega-corporation. Why would I hate or loathe him? Simply because he worked harder than me?

I believe that while "all men are created equal", there is still hierarchy that exists naturally among socio-economic classes. It's not planned that way, it's just categories that people fall into in life. Bottom line, if you want a better standard of living, don't pick work that a robot could do and expect to have what John Collegiate has after he finishes grad school and gets his foot in the door at Fidelity.

To be quite frank, repetitive factory jobs require little more than menial upper body strength.
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Old 06-11-2008, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Sparta, TN
865 posts, read 1,712,134 times
Reputation: 1012
These CEO's are NOT really being paid for their merit. Their companies make money when times are good and lose money when times are bad. They seemed to be rewarded very well regardless of what they do or how badly they manage a company. If they somehow do manage to get forced out or actually completely ruin their company -- some other large company hires them within a year for millions because of their "experience". There's just not much of a price they pay for failure.

I'd have more faith in the company janitor working as CEO than some of these guys. Going to the right school, having the right family connections, and traveling in the same social circles is how these guys achieved success and it's like a club where once your in -- it doesn't really matter how you perform -- you'll still have a job waiting for you someplace.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Michigan--good on the rocks
2,544 posts, read 4,266,110 times
Reputation: 1958
Default Just a reminder

My Grandfather worked for Pontiac Motors berfore there were unions. He used to talk about what it was like during those days.

10-15% of your weekly pay kicked back to your foreman just to keep your job.

If your wife was attractive, that might be a part of the deal, too.

No benefits of any kind.

The benefits such as health insurance, paid time off, retirement, etc. that we take for granted now we would not have at all if there never were unions. Even white collar workers benefitted. To be sure, the unions have abused their power and position, but without them we would not have a middle class to speak of at all.

And why would the worker who makes the product not deserve a fair share of the profits created by said product? You also have not considered the role of skilled tradesmen(& women) in creating and innovating products and techniques.

Regarding CEO's, in our own past and currently in other countries, CEO's have made about 10x the salary that workers earned. Currently in the U.S., that figure is more like 1000x. The greed of upper level management has harmed our industries at least as much if not more than the desire of a working joe to have a decent life.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Michigan--good on the rocks
2,544 posts, read 4,266,110 times
Reputation: 1958
Default Oops I forgot

BTW, on the original question, immigrants do not worry me. Those of the legal type, anyway. Bring 'em on. We are a nation of immigrants. Just please come to be an American, not a (something)-American.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Home!
9,376 posts, read 11,907,818 times
Reputation: 9282
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfarmer View Post
No of course I don't feel sorry for a $5 mil/yr C.E.O.. There is world of a difference between what is expected of a CEO and of a wrench-turner.

Here's what I believe: people get out of life, generally what they put into it.

So what if Joe Sixpack "wants" a big house, five cars, and be a rock superstar.. but barely graduated from high school? What makes him "deserve" $35/hr for something that a homeless man will do for $10?

A guy who spent six years in college to obtain an MBA, climbed the corporate ladder, and employed skills that most factory workers couldn't imagine even existed, definitely deserves to make more than someone who tightens nuts and bolts. I say kudos to the man who worked hard enough in life to get to the number one spot at a mega-corporation. Why would I hate or loathe him? Simply because he worked harder than me?

I believe that while "all men are created equal", there is still hierarchy that exists naturally among socio-economic classes. It's not planned that way, it's just categories that people fall into in life. Bottom line, if you want a better standard of living, don't pick work that a robot could do and expect to have what John Collegiate has after he finishes grad school and gets his foot in the door at Fidelity.

To be quite frank, repetitive factory jobs require little more than menial upper body strength.
You are right, there is a world of difference in what is expected between the two and they are paid accordingly and enjoy the perks that comes along with it.

Unless you have done both jobs it would be unfair for you to assume that one's harder than the other's. They both require upper body strength-one is just mental, while the other is physical. Oh, and nevermind that one is usually standing for their whole workday in a bldg with no air conditioning, eating in a filthy lunchroom, using a filthy restroom and breathing filthy air, taking orders from a "educated" person who has never even so much as ever used the tools that they are working with. Thank goodness for those guys, because a callous from a pencil or computer fingers would have a tough time tightening those nuts and bolts. Or wiring that house he lives in, or giving him the luxury of a toilet that flushes. And oh, that pretty paint job that had to be drywalled, mudded, sanded, painted, second coated, all while breathing that nice air. Geesh, what would John C. do if he didn't have those guys to put in the iron frame for his penthouse office and the elevator to get him there? Oh yeah, and lets not forget the heating and cooling to keep that hardworking-educated-six-years-in-a-college person feeling comfortable. So, yes John C. does have it a bit better because he "deserves" it. Right?

I would like to see John C. hanging from a scaffolding up on the side of his soon-to-be penthouse suite and welding bolts into it. I bet he would be crying for some safety lines, or healthcare, maybe even a pension. But, hey, these guys don't "deserve" it because they didn't climb the corporate ladder through six years of college that daddy paid for. They don't "deserve" to have someone fight for their safety and they don't "deserve" to have benefits for their health, which is at a much higher risk hanging on the outside of the suite than sitting his behind at a cushy desk in the cushy office that someone else grunted through building. Their families don't "deserve" a decent home and a decent living. Shame on them for choosing to build a family with an uneducated person.

I do agree that unions have made some into greedy monsters, but CEOs or management are also greedy, beyond their education. It is the nature of anyone at the top of their game, education or not. Look at a guy like Michael Vick. Greed. Ruined his game. Happens all the time.

Essentially, it also would seem that blue collar workers put quite a bit of dough in the pockets of the white collar workers.

Not every union worker is a person without an education and not every CEO busted his behind to get where he is. Not everyone had the opportunity to be either, for whatever life's reasons. Does that mean he should be penalized? He puts his money back into the system too. It is just that one is sweating over a hot grill to give his family a great meal, while one is having his catered.

I do not agree that one is better than the other by virtue of an education. I have met many "educated" idiots and vice versa. You could say that both sides have the capacity to take advantage of their given situations to a devastating economic point.
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