[JGatti]

When I was younger ( and even today) I always wanted to live and raise my kids in northern Michigan. I would always hear the same thing. " there are not jobs" " they don't pay good wages" etc etc. Well since to complete flop of our state most of the jobs are paying about the same now. Northern or southern Mi. I've even found better paying jobs up north than I have found down here. For example, I have 3 years of experience doing apartment and commercial maintenance. In TC I found a job that started at $13.65 to start being an apartment supervisor. Full benefits and a substantial apartment discount.
Same basic jobs I have found down here. No apartment. HVAC certified required and they start from $8-$10. Huh? I know that was just one job and it was a supervisor position. But I have found supervisor jobs who still did not pay as good down here. Sad how times have changed.
I had a guy come out a couple weeks ago to buy a cargo carried from me. He got all offended ( as a business owner) because I mentioned companies were not paying crap any more. " we're in survival mode, we're just trying to keep our doors open." Uh huh I'd be willing to none of his employee's are driving fully loaded Yukon Danali's and have bear hunting trips planned deep into Canada. Survival? My ass, as with any business owner they'll make sure they still get theirs even though their employee's are barley making it.

[YAZ]

I agree with you that the starting wages are atrocious. That's a slap in the face for someone with your qualifications. May I suggest a new career path? Don't get angry about this cuz I know it's a sensitive topic to many. But we should all do a reality check.




I think market conditions have a lot more to do with the pay. For example, if the owner down the street is paying $10 per hour for a new hire, and I've been paying $15 per hour for new hires, then I'll prob'ly lower my starting wage. It just makes sense.

I lke rich people. Rich people create jobs.

I've never been offered a job from a poor person.

When I first got into the machining trade, I was makin' $4 per hour as an apprentice. That was 1984. In 2000, I was makin' $18 per hour, and had amassed about 5k dollars worth of tools. Then the feces hit the air circulating device. NAFTA, China, et al contributed to DECLINING wages. The great company that I worked for (which paid my college tuition, God bless 'em), started cutting wages, benefits, etc. I was angry, to say the least. I blamed the company of course, but now I realize they had to do those things to stay in business.

Look.

Why do entrepeneurs start businesses?

To provide for their employees?

To "give back" to their community?

While these are traits of good companies, there's one simple reason businesses exist:

To make a profit.

[ladyblue09]

Originally Posted by YAZ

I think market conditions have a lot more to do with the pay. For example, if the owner down the street is paying $10 per hour for a new hire, and I've been paying $15 per hour for new hires, then I'll prob'ly lower my starting wage. It just makes sense.

I lke rich people. Rich people create jobs.

I've never been offered a job from a poor person.

I agree. Starting your own business isn't easy and a lot of small businesses fail. Nobody would be an entrepreneur if they weren't going to get something out of it that made it worth the extra risk. That's why I don't begrudge those who have made good money being "the boss". Still, even those who seem well off still have probably had to cut back to some extent because of the down economy. It has affected all of us to some extent.

[Sparrow_temp]

Here's the problem. It takes X$ just to live in today's society. Your typical employee makes E$ which is not that much above X$. Your business owners are making B$ which is a lot more than X$

When your business owner wants you to take a cut of $C you get:
E$-C$ < X$

Let's say that the owner is taking twice as much of a cut as you.
B$-2*C$ > X$
B$-2*C$ > E$

The business owner can say he's taking a larger cut than you and doesn't want to hear about your complaining even though you are clearly hurting a lot more than he is because you can no longer make it on your after-cut salary. The difference is that the employee is wondering how he can keep his house and the business owner is wondering how he'll be able to afford that next luxury item. This is more of a disconnect between rich and poor than that of business owners and employees.

[UpperPeninsulaRon]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

The business owner can say he's taking a larger cut than you and doesn't want to hear about your complaining even though you are clearly hurting a lot more than he is because you can no longer make it on your after-cut salary. The difference is that the employee is wondering how he can keep his house and the business owner is wondering how he'll be able to afford that next luxury item.

The business owner is more likely lying awake at night worryng about how she will make the next payroll, how she will deal with the letter from the state saying that her business must fork up more money for the unemployment fund, what she has to do to match her competition's pricing and services, and how to keep her marriage intact becase she is working 70 hours per week.

[Driller1]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Here's the problem. It takes X$ just to live in today's society. Your typical employee makes E$ which is not that much above X$. Your business owners are making B$ which is a lot more than X$

When your business owner wants you to take a cut of $C you get:
E$-C$ < X$

Let's say that the owner is taking twice as much of a cut as you.
B$-2*C$ > X$
B$-2*C$ > E$

The business owner can say he's taking a larger cut than you and doesn't want to hear about your complaining even though you are clearly hurting a lot more than he is because you can no longer make it on your after-cut salary. The difference is that the employee is wondering how he can keep his house and the business owner is wondering how he'll be able to afford that next luxury item. This is more of a disconnect between rich and poor than that of business owners and employees.

Then the answer is simple. Open YOUR own business.

[Bydand]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Here's the problem. It takes X$ just to live in today's society. Your typical employee makes E$ which is not that much above X$. Your business owners are making B$ which is a lot more than X$

When your business owner wants you to take a cut of $C you get:
E$-C$ < X$

Let's say that the owner is taking twice as much of a cut as you.
B$-2*C$ > X$
B$-2*C$ > E$

The business owner can say he's taking a larger cut than you and doesn't want to hear about your complaining even though you are clearly hurting a lot more than he is because you can no longer make it on your after-cut salary. The difference is that the employee is wondering how he can keep his house and the business owner is wondering how he'll be able to afford that next luxury item. This is more of a disconnect between rich and poor than that of business owners and employees.

You have never run your own business have you? It shows!

You say:

"The difference is that the employee is wondering how he can keep his house and the business owner is wondering how he'll be able to afford that next luxury item"

When the reality is that while the worker is worried that they may not be able to keep the house, the business owner is worried that they may not be able to keep their house, business, equipment, up on payroll; worried that IF they do have to go under what is going to happen to the people who work for them and their houses, cars, groceries, etc.... Not all business owners are out to rape the masses and stiff their employees. Some, actually care about the people who make them money (their employees), and charge enough to make a profit (after all that IS why you are in business), but stay competitive so there is a job to provide. Get greedy and you lose it all, plus you hurt everybody you employ.

Run a business for a bit, then get back to us about how you are driving the new vehicles, living in a fancy house; and doing it because you can give your "quality" employees a pittance for a wage.

[mr penguin]

Nothing would make me happier as an employer than making so much money that I could afford UAW wages. I would love to be the guy that provides work and GREAT wages. Have you any idea what health care benefits cost an employer? Witholding taxes, unemployment taxes, single business tax, personal property tax, workmen's comp, liability, insurance on company vehicles and building, heat, lights, maintenance, water bills, ...... get my drift? A person usually starts a business to make a living for himself and his family. The business does better and you realize you could use some help. You pay as much as you can and hope to find someone capable. There are limits on how much you can pay. That gets interpreted as "the boss is rich and he's a cheap SOB" Not always true. I pay as much as I can to good employees and hope that they will stay and help the business grow.

[Driller1]

Originally Posted by mr penguin

Nothing would make me happier as an employer than making so much money that I could afford UAW wages. I would love to be the guy that provides work and GREAT wages. Have you any idea what health care benefits cost an employer? Witholding taxes, unemployment taxes, single business tax, personal property tax, workmen's comp, liability, insurance on company vehicles and building, heat, lights, maintenance, water bills, ...... get my drift? A person usually starts a business to make a living for himself and his family. The business does better and you realize you could use some help. You pay as much as you can and hope to find someone capable. There are limits on how much you can pay. That gets interpreted as "the boss is rich and he's a cheap SOB" Not always true. I pay as much as I can to good employees and hope that they will stay and help the business grow.

I can tell you all my insurances come to a little over $25,000 a year.

[mr penguin]

Blue Cross with a 2500 per year deductible, 80/20, $20 office visit, 30% co-pay on prescriptions for a family of five (no maternity benifits unless you have a good size group) is right around $285 per week. That's ONE family! That is no dental benefit or vision either.

Here's one for you. I incorporated in 1986. I paid myself a wage and was surprised that I had to pay into Michigan's unemployment fund. Then I found out that I could never collect unemployment benefits because I was part owner in the corp. Yet I had to pay into the fund because I was an employee!!?? Yikes So I paid into the fund for 19 years and never had a claim until I had to fire an employee who was an absolute nightmare. (The only person I ever canned) I knew he was working for cash a week after he left but never blew the whistle on him. He collected the maximum you can collect for the maximun amount of time and depleted my 19 years worth. Immediately my unemployment contributions went to almost 9% of my gross payroll. Next time I'll hire a private detective and protect myself. It's tough competing and the money just does not flow like some people think. The reason (in my opinion) that the auto companies crashed is because of the unrealistically high wages paid for jobs that just did not warrant it. (i.e. Forklift driver at Ford grossed $113k with overtime in one year. Filed for bankruptcy after they cut the overtime) We all have stories about people not showing up for work and being in the job bank for 10 years or getting paid for sitting and now it's hurt us all.