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The Air Force has historically always whined and complained; other services note that all the time. The majority are whining and do not want to get out. Ultimately there will be people getting out and a loss of talent.
I agree we whine, but sometimes whining fixes the problem. I hear a lot of whining at Fort Lewis...gangs in the ranks, beatings, rapes...things us whiners don't have to deal with! Let the Army sit quietly as gang violence on base escalates! In the Air Force we would whine about it, then it would be noticed and fixed. Our folks may bring light to unfair practices, but the troops in our ranks ensure our Bases don't have the same problems as inner city neighborhoods! I've been to Air Force Bases that on base clubs are off limit to Army troops, why? Because we whine and complain, it keeps us safe!
Fair...this ain't kindergarden, it's the military!
You are correct it isn't kindergarden, I need the super smart nerdy COMNAV and Guidance Control troops..with the skinny arms. I'm happy you do well on the test...maybe if a car runs the front gate you can run them down...sorry that's just not what makes airplanes fly. I past my PT test as well! I just see it's unfair and it's going to ultimately hurt my service. Some of my brightest troops will be discharged...ultimately putting more pressure on "fit" guys to fix airplanes to meet mission requirements. So when we lower all the other standards (so jocks can make it through tech school) and we start to loose missions, lets call it a training problem.
You are correct it isn't kindergarden, I need the super smart nerdy COMNAV and Guidance Control troops..with the skinny arms. I'm happy you do well on the test...maybe if a car runs the front gate you can run them down...sorry that's just not what makes airplanes fly. I past my PT test as well! I just see it's unfair and it's going to ultimately hurt my service. Some of my brightest troops will be discharged...ultimately putting more pressure on "fit" guys to fix airplanes to meet mission requirements. So when we lower all the other standards (so jocks can make it through tech school) and we start to loose missions, lets call it a training problem.
That's BS. The Marines haven't dumbed down there tech schools. All which require a minimum 80 to graduate. They also haven't dumbed down the physical fitness standards. In fact they added a combat fitness test to the standard PFT. The Marine Corps has large aviation program about 1/5 of the total Corps so the comparison is apt.
It is not an either or thing. You can be smart and strong.
That's BS. The Marines haven't dumbed down there tech schools. All which require a minimum 80 to graduate. They also haven't dumbed down the physical fitness standards. In fact they added a combat fitness test to the standard PFT. The Marine Corps has large aviation program about 1/5 of the total Corps so the comparison is apt.
It is not an either or thing. You can be smart and strong.
Not according to a few A.F. guys that post here, lol.
It is not an either or thing. You can be smart and strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balad1
Not according to a few A.F. guys that post here, lol.
Correct...You're both right that you CAN be smart and strong but that's the exception not the rule. Tiger Woods can be a great a golfer and family man, right? lol I know a few dozen hardcore PT guys, I'd say only three are top notch troops all across the board. They all share A-Type personalities and two are looking to get out. The others are just average troops, some of the "strongs" even seem to give two hoots about their careers, only care about fitness and drink protein shakes six times a day. The other "smarts" I know despise PT, most are looking to get out and become civilians/contractors to evade PT. These are the "above and beyond" guys (excluding the PT element) who usually come in early, stay late and have their heads down pounding away at the keyboard. They simply make life easier for their commander and everyone else in the unit.
The Air Force has historically always whined and complained; other services note that all the time. The majority are whining and do not want to get out. Ultimately there will be people getting out and a loss of talent.
Whining in the ranks is good. It's when it stops you need to worry as it signals that the troops have given up and morale is rock bottom. When that happens people stopped caring and the problems will escalate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82
That's BS. The Marines haven't dumbed down there tech schools. All which require a minimum 80 to graduate. They also haven't dumbed down the physical fitness standards. In fact they added a combat fitness test to the standard PFT. The Marine Corps has large aviation program about 1/5 of the total Corps so the comparison is apt.
It is not an either or thing. You can be smart and strong.
The marines don't have to dumb anything down, they already have a low barrier to entry to start, only 1 point higher than the Army. However, they can accept recruits with an ASVAB score as low as 25.
The marines don't have to dumb anything down, they already have a low barrier to entry to start, only 1 point higher than the Army. However, they can accept recruits with an ASVAB score as low as 25.
The minimum score is actually 31/80 (AFQT/GT). Also, the Marine Corps maintains a 63% Alpha percentage which means roughly for every 1 Bravo (31-49) you enlist you must enlist two Alphas (50+). With missions of only 5-7 each month that means only 1-2 Bravos are getting in a month. My partner was denied a contract this month because the kid he put on deck only scored a 46, after scoring 53 on the screening test. Also with the minimum score the only job you qualify for is literally infantry. Up the GT by 10 points and you open yourself up to combat support. That's the reason why the minimum score for female is 50, since females can't serve in combat MOSs. Speaking on aviation specifically, someone with a 31, as stated will not be working on planes. All the services have didffernt lines scores that decide jobs, but for the Marines an aviation mechanic needs a MM score of 105, aviation support is a GT of 105, aircrew is GT 110, and aviation electrician requires an EL of 105. In my experience these scores won't manifest unless someone has an AFQT of at least 63 with an aptitude in the area of study. The exception would be mechanical, I've seen Bravos with relatively low QTs totally kill the mechanical portion of the ASVAB. Overall, in reality, the Marine Corps is actually the hardest service to get into behind the AF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan
Correct...You're both right that you CAN be smart and strong but that's the exception not the rule. Tiger Woods can be a great a golfer and family man, right? lol I know a few dozen hardcore PT guys, I'd say only three are top notch troops all across the board. They all share A-Type personalities and two are looking to get out. The others are just average troops, some of the "strongs" even seem to give two hoots about their careers, only care about fitness and drink protein shakes six times a day. The other "smarts" I know despise PT, most are looking to get out and become civilians/contractors to evade PT. These are the "above and beyond" guys (excluding the PT element) who usually come in early, stay late and have their heads down pounding away at the keyboard. They simply make life easier for their commander and everyone else in the unit.
Maybe "strong" is too strong of a word to use. I'm not talking about superstuds. When I was stationed at Cherry Point the Wing SgtMaj used to do a "moto" run every year with all the units on the base running around the flightline. There was quite a few people sucking wind, alot dropping out, and alot of yo-yo'ing going on. Most of the air wing is far from studs. The number one priority is keeping those planes in the air. There is a saying in the Corps, "swing with the wing". That said, they can all pass their PFT and CFT. The low standard on the PFT is 3 p/u, 28 min 3mi, and I think 55 crunches. Though you'll still fail if you get the minimum in all 3 events. The AF is not asking you to be strong, it's ordering you to be fit. I do agree the waist thing is stupid, though.
This is definitely a transitional period for the AF. The biggest problem with the PT is that it's new. The problem with the direction the AF is going is that it's directly opposed to the reason that a lot of people joined the AF or have come to expect from the AF. There may be some getting out b/c of this, but this won't change the AF standards for the ones coming in. For them this will be all they know. You'll still have the same high quality people joining and the PT will just be part of their lifestyle, and it's really just maintenance from what they did in boot camp and tech school then. The ones who havee been in for a few years are the ones that have to decide whether they want to get on board or get out.
Last edited by macjr82; 10-25-2010 at 10:39 AM..
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