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Knowledge of someone violating the UCMJ is also a violation of the UCMJ.
Wrong for one specific instance.
A *Commander*, who is the one who must charge a servicemember, may decline to prosecute-for many reasons, that he really doesn't have to justify to anyone.
His higher Commander may elect to charge the servicemember, but can't compel the Commander with UCMJ authority to prosecute.
Personally, during my time as a Commander, I never prosecuted Article 125. I probably would have if I had a sworn statement (like, actually sworn by the person that broke the law) that it had been violated, or videotape that JAG said was admissable with mouth on p****. I never had anyone that stupid. Intimations, rumors, and barracks s***-talk don't constitute compelling evidence or a reason to kick into court-martial territory.
A *Commander*, who is the one who must charge a servicemember, may decline to prosecute-for many reasons, that he really doesn't have to justify to anyone.
His higher Commander may elect to charge the servicemember, but can't compel the Commander with UCMJ authority to prosecute.
Personally, during my time as a Commander, I never prosecuted Article 125. I probably would have if I had a sworn statement (like, actually sworn by the person that broke the law) that it had been violated, or videotape that JAG said was admissable with mouth on p****. I never had anyone that stupid. Intimations, rumors, and barracks s***-talk don't constitute compelling evidence or a reason to kick into court-martial territory.
That's no different than adultery, which is only prosecuted by sworn statements, eye witness or video/photographic/written evidence. I personally know someone who was discharged on DADT b/c she was found with another Marine facedown in her crotch by the barracks duty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1979
What about heterosexual acts which often result in the exploitation of women, and all the unplanned pregnancies? Ever think about the innocent victims? The children born only because their Dad wanted some action??
Most people charged under it currently are either b/c they were caught in the act (typically while deployed) are associated with sexual assault cases. There is the rare case where a married couple has been caught in the act and charged ( I know of one where neighbors heard screams MPs investigated and caught in the act, another where a female Marine was giving BJs in the pits during a Bn party (when I worked at the range) and was caught. Often article 125 is charged as a secondary charge to adultery or rape. Also the falsely accused sexual assaults in the military far outstrip the real ones. At least the reported ones.
Charged doesn't always mean court martial, NJPs as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123
Congress is considering repealing article 125 because nearly the only people prosecuted under it are straight, it is not usually prosecuted, and a state law prohibiting sodomy was deemed to be unconstitutional and the constitutionality of this law is in effect, this article states that most people ignore the article, disobey it, and face no consequences. Panel urges ending UCMJ
Your link actually says nothing about congress considering a repeal. A panel, independent of congress, made a suggestion/recommendation to congress repeal it. Also, the repeal was one of several changes requested, the article just focused on article 125. Also this was not the first time the commission suggested this to congress. Now, just as the first time in 2001, congress ignored it.
I think this discussion highlights a lot of the cultural differences between the services. You have the AF represented by DMarie and Crew Chief being the most open to this change in policy. Historically, if not currently, the USAF has been the most "civilian" of the branches. Just as sexual orientation has zero effect on your average 9-5, so would the repeal have little to no effect there.
The Army represented by Georgia Transplant and the attitude of (justifiably) turning a blind eye to the article. Army commanders, in general, are more likely (IMO) to take a more personal view in their duty and enforcement of their orders.
The Navy and Marine Corps being represented by Forest Beekeeper and myself, which due to their shared history are culturally more similar than most people give credit for. Even sharing the same "core values" of Honor Courage, and Commitment. Note that neither of us are against the repeal, just cautious of what it means and how it will be implemented. Going back to service culture there is a sense of responsibility and duty where Article 125 won't be ignored. It's simply not an option. It was noted in this thread how the Navy holds people accountable. //www.city-data.com/forum/milit...-relieved.html
The Marines are the same way. I've seen people NJP'd and busted down simply because they knew someone else did something and didn't report them. I've commanders reluctantly NJP or even admin sep people when on a personal level they wanted to retain them but the rules said otherwise. I myself was victim of a court martial for basically being around the wrong people. He granted me clemency and the court martial was done away with after the fact, but the CO felt it was his duty to convene it. It doesn't matter in the Navy or Marines how you feel about the servicemen or the rules. You swore to uphold the UCMJ and that's what you do. In the past USA/USAF combined discharges outstripped the USN/USMC ones. If article 125 is not repealed along with DADT I could see it going the other way.
Another similarity are the billeting issues. I believe the Navy and Marines are the only services who still have shared quarters outside of basic training. Marines roommates in the barracks and the Navy on ship. This makes billeting an issue. The Marine Corps Commandant has already stated that there needs to be funding behind any repeal so either more barracks or to give single Marines BAH to live out in town. I don't know how the Navy would adjust. Do you go to unisex billeting or add a third or fourth section?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
There will be a period of adjustment which will last only so long as those old heads stay in the service. Once they are gone and the next generation of troop leader arise who have served with openly gay men and women since basic, it won't be an issue. They won't even notice.
I've served with gay members and I know it's no problem for the troops. Heck, my rackmate, was gay when I was in Iraq. I lived in a squad bay with 16 dudes and no one cared. It's not the troops I'm worried about, it's the senior leadership. I was in a unit in Iraq with a gay doc. SgtMaj said if he was hurt and Doc was the only one that could save him, don't let him touch him and let him die a happy man. Another occasion, there was a homosexual member in my unit who everyone knew was gay but he was protected under DADT. He did something else to violate the UCMJ. He got the book thrown at him with brig time and BCD while others with equal or greater involvement, though initially charged eventually got pardons and it was like nothing ever happened for them.
All I'm saying DADT is not the only issue. If it was homosexuals would've been able to openly serve before it existed. I just hope people realize DADT is not the end-all/be-all and deal with the the other issues while repealing DADT.
Last edited by Poncho_NM; 12-23-2010 at 06:43 PM..
HA HA....I'm not predicting anything....the problem with you and others....is when people who have been there and the TRUTH has been told...people will not accept the truth....
Gays have been beaten up in the military...I don't care about Israel or any other country....I'm only giving you what I have seen....WHEN gays did not say they were gay....but then the gay person was found out by everyone else....they were beaten....
I really do not care if you are gay or not.....all I'm doing is stating what I have seen....while serving the military for 21+ years......
HA HA....I'm not predicting anything....the problem with you and others....is when people who have been there and the TRUTH has been told...people will not accept the truth....
Gays have been beaten up in the military...I don't care about Israel or any other country....I'm only giving you what I have seen....WHEN gays did not say they were gay....but then the gay person was found out by everyone else....they were beaten....
I really do not care if you are gay or not.....all I'm doing is stating what I have seen....while serving the military for 21+ years......
Those that did the beating I hope they were discharged after serving time at CCF. I'm a retired servicmen myself and I've know many gays and lesbians during that time. All they want to do is serve their/our country like anyother patriot. None of them were out to recruit strait people to the (Other Side), they just want to do their fare share. Any Officer or NCO that condoned the beating of or humiliation of a gay or lesbian service-person needs to be thrown out on their cans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park
Are you saying gays deserve to be beaten up???
I don't think that they were saying that, they were saying that it had happened.
HA HA....I'm not predicting anything....the problem with you and others....is when people who have been there and the TRUTH has been told...people will not accept the truth....
Gays have been beaten up in the military...I don't care about Israel or any other country....I'm only giving you what I have seen....WHEN gays did not say they were gay....but then the gay person was found out by everyone else....they were beaten....
I really do not care if you are gay or not.....all I'm doing is stating what I have seen....while serving the military for 21+ years......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park
Are you saying gays deserve to be beaten up???
chucksnee said "Gays have been beaten up in the military" not that he felt they should be beaten up. That is my absolute interpretation and understanding.
Military personnel have received "blanket parties" over the years for various reasons.
Gays have been beaten to death in the U.S. because they were gay.
I am waiting to see how this new legislation works out. I am hoping it works out well, but I am afraid there will be some trouble makers.
chucksnee said "Gays have been beaten up in the military" not that he felt they should be beaten up. That is my absolute interpretation and understanding.
Military personnel have received "blanket parties" over the years for various reasons.
Gays have been beaten to death in the U.S. because they were gay.
I am waiting to see how this new legislation works out. I am hoping it works out well, but I am afraid there will be some trouble makers.
Rich
You know the trouble makers are always lurking in the shadows of the cesspools from which they live. They're afraid of change and progress.
OMG OMG!! Some straight people have been beaten up since having joined the military... hurry everyone? What do we do? Dozens and dozens of straight people have been beaten up!
OMG OMG!! Did you know there was once a Jewish guy in the Army who was beaten up? C'mon, let's ban the Jews for their own safety! Oh yeah, and some people who've been beaten up were hispanic... c'mon, hurry... let's save them and ban them from the military!
OMG OMG!! Some straight people have been beaten up since having joined the military... hurry everyone? What do we do? Dozens and dozens of straight people have been beaten up!
OMG OMG!! Did you know there was once a Jewish guy in the Army who was beaten up? C'mon, let's ban the Jews for their own safety! Oh yeah, and some people who've been beaten up were hispanic... c'mon, hurry... let's save them and ban them from the military!
WOW....thats all that needs to be said about that.....
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