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Old 02-09-2015, 08:37 AM
 
1,198 posts, read 1,786,947 times
Reputation: 1728

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It's so much more than the sum of Base + Clothing + BAH + BAS.

EIC: because of the tax advantaged nature of BAS and BAH the married E4 will pay zero in federal income taxes and get a $4k EIC

MyCaa: that E4's wife will get $4k for college

Post 9/11 GI Bill: worth at least $84k, but can climb much higher depending on area and school

Tricare: $3k

Total for four years=$116k

Per year for 4 year enlistment = $29k

The previously mention E4's total compensation= $35k + $29k = $64k

And that's just if you do 4, if you do 20 and get out as an E6 you've got $894k in today's dollars pension coming your way. If you were to try and fund that pension on your own you'd need to invest $13k a year for your whole career (hoping to beat inflation by 4.5% and for no volatility in the market for your 40 year draw on your retirement accounts). If you followed most financial advice and put your retirement into bonds upon retirement you'd have to save $29k/yr vice $13k/yr for 20.

So no, I don't think an E4 is underpaid, there's just a misunderstanding of benefits, and maybe a tendency for junior military personnel to overspend which causes a slew of problems (my family lives quite well on less than E4 take home pay).
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,420 posts, read 10,801,219 times
Reputation: 7801
Considering the number of people that have lost their lives or become seriously injured become in combat, I don't think they are overpaid. Compared to the bloat in the rest of the Fed. gument, where many sit on their rears and punch computer key boards...really. How much pay does one think a life is worth? And by the way, the same goes for law enforcement officers. How would you like to dress in your uniform at the start of a shift and never be certain if you would return to your family at the end.

Last edited by Pretzelogik; 02-09-2015 at 09:00 AM..
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,331 posts, read 61,154,439 times
Reputation: 30256
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
No on the "free housing"...he has a rent payment every month out of that $35k gross as it includes his BAH.
'He' went off-base and located an apartment to rent. He rented said apartment, and he took the lease to PSD on-base. They gave him BAH [in my day it was called BAQ], and if his rent exceeded BAH then they also cut him in on VHA / COLA [which varies by region].

'He' could have just as easily bought a house instead of renting. That was what I did. I bought a home [that was also a triplex or 5-plex, and then filled them with sailor's families].

It is free housing.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:01 AM
 
1,198 posts, read 1,786,947 times
Reputation: 1728
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
No on the "free housing"...he has a rent payment every month out of that $35k gross as it includes his BAH.

As I've said before on this forum...I'm an HR Director and see what civilians make and the hours they work. I've not seen anyone work the hours I did or my son does when we are deployed or underway. My son just did 10 months 24/7 at sea working seven days a week, 12-16 hour days. I did the same thing when I was a junior Sailor on the ship.

Figure the hourly wage on those 10 months please. Oh, during that time he did get $250/month family separation pay. So he was making $38,000 annually, living on a ship at sea working those hours. Please explain how it is disingenuous to say they make less than their civilian counterparts?
That's way worse than any schedule I ever saw on AD. My avg week was 81 hours, others worked 84, but not much past that. We also got lots of port calls, and 2 weeks before and after deployment where little work was done, plus 30 days of leave a year.

So let's look at your sons year.

Deploying he could have invested in SDP and got a grand.

Worked 10 months @ 84 hours a week, but made 10 port calls of 3 days each, taking off a full month of deployment.

4 weeks deployment bookend standown (7 6 hour days total).

A month of leave

So in a year he worked 3,360 hours, and got paid $38,000. But also could have got another $1k in SDP, will get $4k in EIC, $3k in tricare benefits, and $21k in CH33 educational benefits.

That's $67k/3360=$19.94 an hour net for whatever your son does, and that's in a bad year. Ships can only deploy so often.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,331 posts, read 61,154,439 times
Reputation: 30256
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223 View Post
It's so much more than the sum of Base + Clothing + BAH + BAS.

EIC: because of the tax advantaged nature of BAS and BAH the married E4 will pay zero in federal income taxes and get a $4k EIC

MyCaa: that E4's wife will get $4k for college

Post 9/11 GI Bill: worth at least $84k, but can climb much higher depending on area and school

Tricare: $3k

Total for four years=$116k

Per year for 4 year enlistment = $29k

The previously mention E4's total compensation= $35k + $29k = $64k

And that's just if you do 4, if you do 20 and get out as an E6 you've got $894k in today's dollars pension coming your way. If you were to try and fund that pension on your own you'd need to invest $13k a year for your whole career (hoping to beat inflation by 4.5% and for no volatility in the market for your 40 year draw on your retirement accounts). If you followed most financial advice and put your retirement into bonds upon retirement you'd have to save $29k/yr vice $13k/yr for 20.

So no, I don't think an E4 is underpaid, there's just a misunderstanding of benefits, and maybe a tendency for junior military personnel to overspend which causes a slew of problems (my family lives quite well on less than E4 take home pay).
During most of my career, I got:
BAQ [now called BAH],
BAS [when in-port],
COLA, VHA,
Sub pay,
Career sub pay,
Sea pay,
Career sea pay,
Sea pay kicker,
Female separation pay,

All in addition to base-pay.

The Navy also pays SRB. The SRB cap now is $90k. You can get SRB every 4 years. I was not a nuc.

During my career the SRB cap was $65k every 4 years. That was how much was offered to us for every re-up.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,562 posts, read 18,061,935 times
Reputation: 34368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
During most of my career, I got:
BAQ [now called BAH],
BAS [when in-port],
COLA, VHA,
Sub pay,
Career sub pay,
Sea pay,
Career sea pay,
Sea pay kicker,
Female separation pay,

All in addition to base-pay.

The Navy also pays SRB. The SRB cap now is $90k. You can get SRB every 4 years. I was not a nuc.

During my career the SRB cap was $65k every 4 years. That was how much was offered to us for every re-up.
Right, and that just adds some additional context to this compensation debate (I completely forgot about bonuses, both signing and re-up bonuses)! I'm not claiming that military members are getting rich off of their service, but the talk of them getting "paid too little" is, when you consider their total compensation package, often very much exaggerated.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,562 posts, read 18,061,935 times
Reputation: 34368
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223 View Post
It's so much more than the sum of Base + Clothing + BAH + BAS.

EIC: because of the tax advantaged nature of BAS and BAH the married E4 will pay zero in federal income taxes and get a $4k EIC

MyCaa: that E4's wife will get $4k for college

Post 9/11 GI Bill: worth at least $84k, but can climb much higher depending on area and school

Tricare: $3k

Total for four years=$116k

Per year for 4 year enlistment = $29k

The previously mention E4's total compensation= $35k + $29k = $64k

And that's just if you do 4, if you do 20 and get out as an E6 you've got $894k in today's dollars pension coming your way. If you were to try and fund that pension on your own you'd need to invest $13k a year for your whole career (hoping to beat inflation by 4.5% and for no volatility in the market for your 40 year draw on your retirement accounts). If you followed most financial advice and put your retirement into bonds upon retirement you'd have to save $29k/yr vice $13k/yr for 20.

So no, I don't think an E4 is underpaid, there's just a misunderstanding of benefits, and maybe a tendency for junior military personnel to overspend which causes a slew of problems (my family lives quite well on less than E4 take home pay).
Thanks for adding this information to provide a clearer picture of compensation and benefits! I'm disappointed that knowledgeable people, especially those who work in human resources, do not mention all of this when trashing military compensation.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,562 posts, read 18,061,935 times
Reputation: 34368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
Housing allowance is "Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH)" and it is not taxed. It is based on the geographic duty location, the pay grade, and dependency status, basically married or single.

An E-1 with dependents where we live (zip 87144) is $1197.00 per month. Our 3br 2bath mortgage payment is less than that... You can check the rates here: Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH)

You were also thinking of Basic Allowance for Subsistence (BAS) is not taxed, it is meant to offset costs for a member's meals, which is based in the historic origins of the military in which the military provided room and board/rations as part of a member's pay. BAS is linked to the price of food and is adjusted each year. The BAS effective Jan. 1, 2009 was $323.87 per month for enlisted members: Basic Allowance for Subsistence (BAS)

There are various additional pay such as Hostile Fire and Imminent Danger Pay currently $225 / month. CONUS COLA Payment, Flight Pay (Crew Member), Career Enlisted Flyer Incentive Pay, Diving Duty Pay, Hardship Duty Pay, Foreign Language Proficiency Pay, Family Separation Allowance and more. Not taxed. There is an unofficial list and sample tax advantage chart for an E-4 with family with tax advantage listed is $48,946: Military Enlisted Pay Breakdown | Military.com

Those are facts. Is the military for everyone? No. Would I do it again (22 years)? Yes.
Thanks for thorough reply and for your service!
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Katy, TX
465 posts, read 611,678 times
Reputation: 727
I do believe the enlisted are underpaid. For what they do, hours they put in, and the danger they face. Even in training. My dad was in the Air Force and got out as a Captain. He took a HUGE pay cut working for a major airlines. He's doing pretty sweet now. Took 10 years but he definitely is earning more now than if he stayed in. Raises are far better in the private sector.

My husband retired from the Army last September. He kept hearing about how his friends were taking pay cuts or sliding into the same job but as a civilian making the same pay, sometimes more if comparing it to base pay only. My husband found a good job with a great company. His starting pay is more than his O5 base pay. He's also getting pension which is greater than BAH. So he is making more money now. His company based his compensation on his education (he has a masters, the military does NOT compensate for that unless you are a Doctor or lawyer). He also got a sign on bonus and qualifies for annual bonuses based on salary. He gets 4 weeks paid vacation. He was offered another job at the same time the other offer came in and they were going to match his 05 pay. I can say from our experience there are employers willing to compensate for talent.
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,866 posts, read 11,192,444 times
Reputation: 7123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223 View Post
That's way worse than any schedule I ever saw on AD. My avg week was 81 hours, others worked 84, but not much past that. We also got lots of port calls, and 2 weeks before and after deployment where little work was done, plus 30 days of leave a year.

So let's look at your sons year.

Deploying he could have invested in SDP and got a grand.

Worked 10 months @ 84 hours a week, but made 10 port calls of 3 days each, taking off a full month of deployment.

4 weeks deployment bookend standown (7 6 hour days total).

A month of leave

So in a year he worked 3,360 hours, and got paid $38,000. But also could have got another $1k in SDP, will get $4k in EIC, $3k in tricare benefits, and $21k in CH33 educational benefits.

That's $67k/3360=$19.94 an hour net for whatever your son does, and that's in a bad year. Ships can only deploy so often.
Ok, now lets be realistic and not fantasy...

You're using an investment program (SDP) that he could have participated in if he was in a qualifying combat zone (which he wasn't) as an example of overall military compensation? He didn't have this opportunity.

He didn't have 10 port calls in that 10 months. He had seven.

He got no "bookend standown" when they returned from deployment. He got a four day weekend and had duty one of those days.

Little work before and after deployment??? I spent 26 years in the Navy and we were always swamped before and after deployment...those were our busiest times.

He was only allowed to take 12 days of leave that year at Christmas time.

He has no children and doesn't qualify for EIC (this isn't military compensation anyway)

He drew no CH33 educational benefits because he was at sea

He used no tricare because he was on a ship for 10 months.

They were home for two months standing 4 section duty and got back under way and have only been back in port for two days.

He worked over 84 hours per week so please re-figure using the realistic information and not all your fantasy numbers. He had some 20 hour days mixed in with his normal 12-16 hour days depending on their work load. His division doesn't run two shifts, they have one shift and are required to work until the work is done but have to do a minimum of 12 hours a day seven days a week.
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