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Old Today, 04:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Obviously there are different powers in relation to US military authorities outside the wire in other countries.

On top of this there is also generally a difference between the powers of military police and civilian police in many countries, although some countries do have paramilitary police in the form of a Gendarmerie.

In Britain, US nuclear based protests outside of the war were generally dealt with by the local police and the Ministry of Defence Police a civilian police force who wear civilian police uniforms and have more powers outside the wires than the various British armed service police branches.

The main problems in Europe related to the sighting of Cruise and Pershing nuclear missiles, and in Britain the main protests were in relation to Greeham Common in Berkshire and Molesworth in Cambridge, both of which became home to BGM-109G Ground Launched Cruise Missile.

In terms of these Ground Launch cruise missile the vehicles had to leave the base via the gates and go to secret locations where they would launch their missiles, so keep the gates clear and open was essential and imperative.

In terms of the area around the base at Greenham Common that was the responsibility of Thames Valley Police backed up by the Ministry of Defence Police, and they could call on mutual aid from other civilian forces in relation to mass demonstrations if needed, and the same applied to Molesworth with the only difference between that the local police force was Cambridgeshire Constabulary.

I should imagine in the US that outside of the wire in peacetime it's the Local and State Police along with some Federal organisations if needed that manage civilian protests with possible support from the uniformed military police such as the USAF Security Forces.
Kirtland is one of the few bases that I have not been to. But assuming that the gate in question is in Albuquerque, it should’ve been one phone call to APD, and the gate should’ve been cleared in minutes.

So my questions are:

1) Was this call even made?

2) if it was, why was no action taken by the APD?

3) Why were pro-Hamas supporters allowed to shut down a gate and nobody did anything about it?

4) What if it would’ve been a different protest with vastly different ideologies?

I think we all know the answers to these questions and why no action was taken.
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Old Today, 05:42 AM
 
Location: western NY
6,519 posts, read 3,205,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
Kirtland is one of the few bases that I have not been to. But assuming that the gate in question is in Albuquerque, it should’ve been one phone call to APD, and the gate should’ve been cleared in minutes.

So my questions are:

1) Was this call even made?

2) if it was, why was no action taken by the APD?

3) Why were pro-Hamas supporters allowed to shut down a gate and nobody did anything about it?

4) What if it would’ve been a different protest with vastly different ideologies?

I think we all know the answers to these questions and why no action was taken.
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Old Today, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,355 posts, read 13,605,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
Kirtland is one of the few bases that I have not been to. But assuming that the gate in question is in Albuquerque, it should’ve been one phone call to APD, and the gate should’ve been cleared in minutes.

So my questions are:

1) Was this call even made?

2) if it was, why was no action taken by the APD?

3) Why were pro-Hamas supporters allowed to shut down a gate and nobody did anything about it?

4) What if it would’ve been a different protest with vastly different ideologies?

I think we all know the answers to these questions and why no action was taken.
I am not privy to what happened in relation to Kirtland, however the USAF usually have a good working relationship with the local police and other agencies responsible for the general public outside of the base.

As for the protesters they were clearly Pro-Palestine rather than Hamas supporters, and I should imagine it was a relatively small demonstration compared to some if the Anti-Nuclear demonstrations back in the 1980's.

Obviously protesters should not interfere with the activities and work of a military base and should not damage property however there are often limited powers when it comes to Service Police (Military Police) in terms of the General Public outside of the wires in peacetime, which is why military prefer to use local police.

In reality such protesters are just trying to provoke a response and would like nothing better than being able to film military personnel dragging them off the road and then sticking it on youtube, and tis would merely encourage others of a similar persuasion to do the same.

In this respect it's better just to ignore the protesters as much as possible, and just let them sit there with no response with the local police keeping an eye on the protest outside of the wire, and the service police keeping an eye on events from inside the wire.

If they do block a gate, then the military may well have numerous other alternative plans, as the military often plan ahead for all eventualities, and I would suggest that they did the right thing just playing down the incident and not eliciting the response the protesters would have hoped for, thereby discouraging further protests.

I should imagine in this respect there is nothing more boring that standing outside a gate and being largely ignored and not receiving the attention or response you had hoped for.
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Old Today, 06:48 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,878,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
Clark, and other overseas bases, are an entirely different discussion as far as base access. You’ve got foreign governments, foreign police forces and military, the US Embassy, SOFA agreements, all part of the equation.

But if we are strictly talking about CONUS bases, there is really no reason at all for local authorities not to keep gates clear. Unless they don’t want to for political reasons. Which is exactly what happened in New Mexico.
Of course the reasons are political, but politics is not always partisan, which was the point of my story. The Air Force never has dragged protestors away from gates willy-nilly.
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Old Today, 07:00 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,878,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I should imagine in this respect there is nothing more boring that standing outside a gate and being largely ignored and not receiving the attention or response you had hoped for.
This is true. They were right at the Kirtland main Gibson Gate. Back during the 80s, the Gibson Gate was moved about 2000 feet back from Louisiana Blvd and a couple of kinks added to the access road to enhance security. That put them 'way out of sight of civilian traffic activity, and when Kirtland base traffic was routed away from that gate...nobody even saw them but the gate guards. There weren't very many, anyway, just barely enough to string them hand-in-hand across the lanes.

Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; Today at 07:23 AM..
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Old Today, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Of course the reasons are political, but politics is not always partisan, which was the point of my story. The Air Force never has dragged protestors away from gates willy-nilly.
Yet before the administration turned against Israel for political reasons, Hamas protestors who tried to block the gates at Travis were immediately arrested back in March. The gates were back open very quickly.

https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/n...ir-force-base/

My point here is that military bases within CONUS should be cleared immediately. If you want to protest the base, which is your right, you can do so without interrupting base operations.
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Old Today, 07:46 AM
 
13,144 posts, read 21,091,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
So my questions are:

1) Was this call even made?
Yes, if you READ the news articles and USAF press releases as well as LOOK at the photos, you will see both the City and County law enforcement present at the scene.

2) if it was, why was no action taken by the APD?
It was a non violent peaceful protest. City and County policy is to let them protest and only if it becomes a problem do they act. In this case after a bit of closing of the street, they were asked to move to the sidewalk which the protesters did. Since it was not on USAF/DOD property, the military had no jurisdiction on what occurred on public property off the base.

3) Why were pro-Hamas supporters allowed to shut down a gate and nobody did anything about it?
They did not shut the gate down! The decision to close the gate was made by the Air Force so as to keep base personnel from confronting the demonstrators. However, access to the road to the gate was never blocked by the protesters as there were open roads to that gate that could have been used.

Remember the protesters were only blocking the city street north of the base entry, access via the south was still open and access through the business parking lot still providing access. Even when they were asked to move from blocking the street and temporarily moved to the public street that leads to the base gate, they still only restricted one lane, not the full access. It was the police vehicles that blocked the street access to the gate, not the protesters.


4) What if it would’ve been a different protest with vastly different ideologies?
The policies pertain to protest/demonstrations and the peaceful or violent nature, not ideology.
Want to add, there are hundreds of military bases where the entry access or base entryway isn't actually on federal land. Often times, they are on city, county or state leased land for the purpose of having a continuous frontage. In this case, the base current access is on federal land but is located at the end of a dead end street that is public.
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Old Today, 10:23 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,878,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
Yet before the administration turned against Israel for political reasons, Hamas protestors who tried to block the gates at Travis were immediately arrested back in March. The gates were back open very quickly.

https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/n...ir-force-base/

My point here is that military bases within CONUS should be cleared immediately. If you want to protest the base, which is your right, you can do so without interrupting base operations.
The first difference is that the Travis protestors put out physical devices to create a physical threat, such as throwing nail hedgehogs onto the road and putting out furniture as physical barriers. That kind of activity comprises a physical threat to which there will be a more vigorous response.

And notice...it was the same administration.
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Old Today, 12:44 PM
 
6,214 posts, read 3,422,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The first difference is that the Travis protestors put out physical devices to create a physical threat, such as throwing nail hedgehogs onto the road and putting out furniture as physical barriers. That kind of activity comprises a physical threat to which there will be a more vigorous response.

And notice...it was the same administration.
True, same administration. But the difference was when the policy changed. This administration listened to the Michigan dissenters, and they adjusted policy.
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Old Today, 12:49 PM
 
6,214 posts, read 3,422,600 times
Reputation: 11181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrrita View Post
Want to add, there are hundreds of military bases where the entry access or base entryway isn't actually on federal land. Often times, they are on city, county or state leased land for the purpose of having a continuous frontage. In this case, the base current access is on federal land but is located at the end of a dead end street that is public.
Why would the airmen need to avoid the protestors if the gate was not impeded in anyway? I don’t buy this “official” account. The administration showed solidarity with the protestors, plain and simple.

Look, I fully understand this isn’t a military call here. But one point I want to make is that depending on what state it is in, you will get different responses. Depending on which party is in power, you will also get different responses.

If you want or support Hamas, knock yourself out. There are definitely MSM articles out there that will back up whatever narrative you are trying to push.

But I see this for what it clearly is. Trying to get votes.
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