Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The captain, does not happen unless you are married to Her Majesties daughter, then you better perform unless you wish to meet the block and the axe in the Tower of London
Nope, field grade rank or above to be called by your retired rank in the UK.
Why is it surprising? Can you provide the reference you are reading from?
I really don't know what the norm is.
General Petraeus is not a member of the "Commonwealth" he is a United States Army General Officer.
The United States does not not honor others by knighthood.
I don't know. Why don't you have the answer since you appear to have researched the subject?
So what is your insinuation?
Rich
What insinuation ? curiosity about the different systems.
And yes US generals have been awarded knighthoods, and no they are not honourary.
The only reason they do not use the title Sir is because HM is not head of state of the USA.
General's don't have to justify what they do to the Privates.
I've tried to find the citation for that Bronze Star, but it doesn't seem to be online. The only thing I've found is that it was awarded in 2007. According to one site (which is highly partisan and therefore suspect), it was awarded for a mortar shell landing 50 meters from the General while he was reading a map on the hood of a HUMVEE.
Frankly, I've seen officers "win" medals for a lot less than that, so it's entirely possible.
You've got to understand how the US Army works, especially in the combat arms and more particularly among the officer corps. The first priority for any career officer is advancement. You either move up, or you move out. In order to move up, you must be promoted on time. In order to be promoted, your record has to reflect a few basic things or your career goes off track. I can only speak from my experience as an Infantry officer, so that's what I'll address. Petreaus was commissioned as an Infantry officer, so it's valid for him too.
The first thing an officer needs for promotion is an available slot for his next rank. For instance, you can't be promoted to Major unless you have a slot in someone's manning table which requires the rank of Major. On rare occassions, an officer can be held on a manning table as "overstrength," but that's not a good place to find yourself, especially if that unit deploys. You won't go. It is in finding an available slot where a "helping hand" is desireable. It is here where you find the sucking up, pandering and butt kissing. Some few, lucky officers are offered a slot for promotion based upon their demonstrated skills, but it's usually offered because some higher ranking officer likes you and wants you on his team. It's called "coat-tailing" (or, mentoring as a better term) and it's effect on the efficiency of the Army is insidious and pervasive. Promotion depends far, far more on WHO you know, rather than WHAT you know, and the troops suffer for it. It results in the Peter Principle on steroids as the more adept game-players rise into the ranks where they can do REAL damage to the troops, while the real soldiers are denied such opportunities because they've been busy soldiering rather than schmoozing.
Once a slot is found, an officer than has to be promoted and it is here where medals become critically important.
Officer promotion selections are made at DOD level. The promotion board looks at the totality of an officers career within their branch and rank candidates according to their qualifications. The higher you're ranked by the board, the sooner you get promoted. Of course, influence is important here too, but that's another matter.
What they're looking for is, first, a record of advancing responsibility from one level to another. An officers record must reflect the "right" pattern of growth beginning at the platoon level when an officer was a 2LT. To be acceptable, that career pattern should move from platoon leadership to company staff, to company command, to battalion staff, to battalion leadership and so on. Command time is absolutely critical, but it doesn't have to really mean anything nor is it all that important how well you did the job. Just holding the required command slot is important, so a lot of eager officers finagle their way into command slots and hold them for just a minimum amount of time before transfering back to staff where the schmoozing goes on. Colin Powell's career is a classic example of this. An officer who holds "too much" command time is suspect and not likely to rise to the top of the teepee. He doesn't know the "right" people.
Next, they want to see demonstrated skill in the officers branch. For Infantry officers, that means Ranger School, a Combat Infantryman's Badge (or, as a poor second, the Clost Combat Badge) and at least one personal award for valor. Without those, you're at a disadvantage, so "earning" those becomes a goal in itself, a goal which lower ranking officers on staff and senior NCO's are more than happy to help an officer get because they know which side their bread is buttered on. The staff very often looks for any excuse to help the boss get his "required" medals and are very adept at writing up awards citations which can take something as trivial as a mortar round landing 50 meters away and turn it into an act of pure courage. It's the ultimate exercise in game-playing and everyone knows it goes on, yet nobody does anything about it because it's available to all, when they get into the right position. That such a medal is unearned and unjustified isn't as important as the fact that it's there on his chest in his official promotion portrait. (By the way, as an officer advances in responsibility, his valor medals should advance in "worthiness" too. A Bronze Star won't cut it when you've been a Battalion Commander. A Silver Star is necessary and a Distinquished Service Cross above that rank.)
And, there's this: Ground Zero for all things Infantry in the US Army is Bldg. 4 at Ft. Benning, Infantry Hall. It is populated by scads of officers and senior NCO's and it's like the Christmas parade in the hallways. Officers and NCO's move about like peacocks, with their chest thrust forward so everyone can compare medals. The LAST thing an officer wants to be found lacking by his peers. Good Lord! That guy has a Silver Star and I don't have anything! That won't work! How can I get one without really endangering myself? The Pentagon is even worse.
Anyhow, that's my take on the subject.
Oh, one more thing: The whole system is heavily loaded in favor of "Ring Knockers," West Point graduates. Very, very few OCS or ROTC officers make it to the very top. In fact, I believe Colin Powell is the only one who ever did, which means he's very, very good at playing the game. The West Point Protective Association (WPPA) isn't official, but it is VERY real.
I enjoyed your explanation but I am curious about one thing, I take it there are a few Senators who have seen a bit of combat such as Senator Webb etc, would all that bling impress those with service ?
A photo of General Freyberg, VC DSO and four bars etc, wounded twelve times in ten years of fighting the Germans over two wars.
His award rack looks rather shabby in comparison though. http://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/image...605bfeeca.jpeg
I enjoyed your explanation but I am curious about one thing, I take it there are a few Senators who have seen a bit of combat such as Senator Webb etc, would all that bling impress those with service ?
Maybe. There are a lot of Veteran's in Congress and even a few who have actually seen combat, but I suspect their reaction to "bling" would depend upon their overall view of war and the service. I don't know many combat Veteran's who are impressed with it, but there are some who are still "true believers." I'm sure that applies to Congress too.
I think the classic example of not being impressed was provided by Sen. Daniel Inouye when LTC Oliver North was testifying about the Iran-Contra affair. North showed up in full Marine regalia and pretty much wowed the audience, except for Inouye. He had lost an arm in Italy during WWII, but in spite of that visible wound, wore his small Combat Infantryman's Badge (CIB) on his lapel during the hearings as a sort of warning to North that he wasn't bedazzled by the fruit salad on his chest.
Quote:
A photo of General Freyberg, VC DSO and four bars etc, wounded twelve times in ten years of fighting the Germans over two wars.
His award rack looks rather shabby in comparison though. http://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/image...605bfeeca.jpeg
Yes, it does look rather "shabby," doesn't it? I've seen SSG's still on their first enlistments who have more than that.
As a case in point, when I visited my son at Ft. Benning, GA during his basic training back in the mid-90's, I was particularly interested in meeting his Drill Sergeants and finding out just what they knew and how they taught. After all, I had been a Drill Sergeant myself before receiving a commission and I wanted to know if the Army still put basic trainees in good hands.
They did. I was more than impressed with the cadre in my son's training unit, but I couldn't help but notice that most of them were Gulf War Infantry Veteran's and had more ribbons on their chests than I did after nearly 15 years of service! When I came back from Vietnam as a Specialist 4th Class, I had one complete row of ribbons and a couple of extras, plus a CIB above that and nothing more. Even after another 12 or 13 years of service, I had only added enough to make two rows with one left over.
Those young NCO's, God bless 'em, had 3 or even 4 complete rows of ribbons PLUS jump wings, PLUS their CIB's! Now..I'm not the judgmental type, but I know the ground war in the Gulf only lasted 100 hours, just over 4 days. How many medals can one win in 4 days? Yes, some of those ribbons were what we called "machs nicht's" BS, back in the day, such as the NCO Professional Development Ribbon and some were simply service ribbons which everyone gets, but an astonishing number of them were personal awards, usually with the "V" device which denotes personal heroism. Every Drill I met had AT LEAST a Bronze Star or Army Commendation Medal with a "V" device!
Sure, they could've all been honestly won, but I suspect something else was at play: It had been more than 15 years since the last "big" war and nobody was going to let the opportunity to pad their resume' pass without taking advantage of everything that short war offered. I couldn't help but wonder... if they were giving out Bronze Stars to junior NCO's and lower ranking enlisted men, what were the officers and senior commanders getting? You can bet your sweet azz it wasn't a mere Bronze Star or Army Commendation Medal!
I saw the same thing happen after the invasions of Panama and Grenada. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), the Army handed out more than 5 THOUSAND awards for individual heroism, just in Panama alone. While some parts of that invasion saw some pretty heavy combat, it lasted only a couple of weeks and involved a total Army committment of maybe the equivilent of 2 divisions. That would be, at best, roughly 25,000 troops. If my figures are correct, that would mean 1 in 5 got an individual courage award.
Call me a cynic, or a bitter old combat Veteran, but I find that highly doubtful.
You've got to understand how the US Army works, especially in the combat arms and more particularly among the officer corps. The first priority for any career officer is advancement. You either move up, or you move out. In order to move up, you must be promoted on time. In order to be promoted, your record has to reflect a few basic things or your career goes off track. I can only speak from my experience as an Infantry officer, so that's what I'll address. Petreaus was commissioned as an Infantry officer, so it's valid for him too.
The first thing an officer needs for promotion is an available slot for his next rank. For instance, you can't be promoted to Major unless you have a slot in someone's manning table which requires the rank of Major. On rare occassions, an officer can be held on a manning table as "overstrength," but that's not a good place to find yourself, especially if that unit deploys. You won't go. It is in finding an available slot where a "helping hand" is desireable. It is here where you find the sucking up, pandering and butt kissing. Some few, lucky officers are offered a slot for promotion based upon their demonstrated skills, but it's usually offered because some higher ranking officer likes you and wants you on his team. It's called "coat-tailing" (or, mentoring as a better term) and it's effect on the efficiency of the Army is insidious and pervasive. Promotion depends far, far more on WHO you know, rather than WHAT you know, and the troops suffer for it. It results in the Peter Principle on steroids as the more adept game-players rise into the ranks where they can do REAL damage to the troops, while the real soldiers are denied such opportunities because they've been busy soldiering rather than schmoozing.
Once a slot is found, an officer than has to be promoted and it is here where medals become critically important.
Officer promotion selections are made at DOD level. The promotion board looks at the totality of an officers career within their branch and rank candidates according to their qualifications. The higher you're ranked by the board, the sooner you get promoted. Of course, influence is important here too, but that's another matter.
What they're looking for is, first, a record of advancing responsibility from one level to another. An officers record must reflect the "right" pattern of growth beginning at the platoon level when an officer was a 2LT. To be acceptable, that career pattern should move from platoon leadership to company staff, to company command, to battalion staff, to battalion leadership and so on. Command time is absolutely critical, but it doesn't have to really mean anything nor is it all that important how well you did the job. Just holding the required command slot is important, so a lot of eager officers finagle their way into command slots and hold them for just a minimum amount of time before transfering back to staff where the schmoozing goes on. Colin Powell's career is a classic example of this. An officer who holds "too much" command time is suspect and not likely to rise to the top of the teepee. He doesn't know the "right" people.
Many of your comments are pretty close to reality (I particularly liked the bit about the sticking the chest out in Building 4, or any other branch HQ).
However, you don't appear to really understand the promotion system for officers from Captain to Colonel and I have to disagree with many of the assertions. I am a survivor of the officer promotion system, and I have served across the spectrum of combat support and combat service support units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
For instance, you can't be promoted to Major unless you have a slot in someone's manning table which requires the rank of Major.
Yes, you can. Promotions are done centrally, not locally, and are done by *time in grade*, *time in service*, and *file strength* (evaluations), not whether you are filling an authorized slot. The vast majority of officers make rank exactly when they are "supposed" to make it (primary zone) and not significantly before or after. If you are in the zone, you are in the zone, regardless of whether you are in a particular slot or know someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
An officer who holds "too much" command time is suspect and not likely to rise to the top of the teepee.
Not sure where you got this. Company command, more is better, but 2 commands is both rare and career-enhancing, not detrimental.
Battalion command and Brigade command, almost without exception, you get 2 years +/-; I invite you to find me valid examples of someone who held 2 or more Battalion Commands, for 3 or more years total, or ANYONE who held 2 or more Brigade Commands (who is still in service: Vietnam and Korea do not count). You won't. It's centrally managed. People get their 1, centrally selected, shot, so that "coattail" thing doesn't get used or abused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
Some few, lucky officers are offered a slot for promotion based upon their demonstrated skills, but it's usually offered because some higher ranking officer likes you and wants you on his team.
Completely wrong. Promotion boards consider *thousands* of files for COL and below, and 16 or so people, all from different branches and backgrounds, all consider, and "vote" files at a furious, rapid pace. You get about a minute to look at the ORB (where they've been; have they filled generally appropriate slots for their branch), the photo (are they fat? Can they wear a uniform?), and OERs (is the blocking generally good/bad/incredible? Is the language enthusiastic?) If there is significant deviation in the votes, they must go back and reconsider. The net effect: a good file is a good file is a good file.
This is somewhat true but not entirely. The level of West Point Grads to ROTC/OCS grads reaching the top is fairly even. Tommy Franks, Colin Powell, George W. Casey Jr., Peter Schoomaker, William F. Kernan, J. H. Binford Peay III and many many more did not graduate from the Point.
As far as the original topic goes, David Petraeus is one helluva officer but his ribbon rack is INSANE. I think he has almost every award the Army offers lol. Pretty soon he is going to need an aide to carry what awards wouldn't fit on his chest.
Our generals and admirals (United States) remind me of those Soviet WWII generals with their chest full of medals to such an extent that I have yet to figure out how they were able to walk with all those medals on! You still see this with all the old Russian World War II veterans on like VE Day, and Russian national holidays. IMO it looks tacky and out of place considering that we are supposed to be a republic not some monarchy/military dictatorship state.
I can just see General Petraeus walking around with an aide or two behind him carrying all his additional medals.
Edit: I have noticed that wearing medals is all commonplace on national holidays in Commonwealth countries. On ANZAC Day, Remembrance Day (our Veteran's Day and Memorial Day combined into one holiday on our Veteran's Day), the Queen's birthday, Australia Day, Canada Day, etc. On a side note, why is the Queen's birthday a national holiday? When I become President of the United States can my birthday also be a national holiday? I admire the Queen and respect the British/Commonwealth monarchy but having your birthday be a national holiday sounds silly.
Our generals and admirals (United States) remind me of those Soviet WWII generals with their chest full of medals to such an extent that I have yet to figure out how they were able to walk with all those medals on! You still see this with all the old Russian World War II veterans on like VE Day, and Russian national holidays. IMO it looks tacky and out of place considering that we are supposed to be a republic not some monarchy/military dictatorship state.
I can just see General Petraeus walking around with an aide or two behind him carrying all his additional medals.
Edit: I have noticed that wearing medals is all commonplace on national holidays in Commonwealth countries. On ANZAC Day, Remembrance Day (our Veteran's Day and Memorial Day combined into one holiday on our Veteran's Day), the Queen's birthday, Australia Day, Canada Day, etc. On a side note, why is the Queen's birthday a national holiday? When I become President of the United States can my birthday also be a national holiday? I admire the Queen and respect the British/Commonwealth monarchy but having your birthday be a national holiday sounds silly.
Nope, in Australia and NZ medals are worn by retired military only on ANZAC day, children and grandchildren of dead veterans are encouraged to wear their medals on the day, but, they wear them on the right.
Active and retired grunts,Gunners, Sappers etc wear Commonwealth awards only on the left of the chest.
Awards are NEVER worn by retired military on any other public holiday, just not good form.
With the US and Russia being republics maybe they have something in common
My father participated in six combat missions during World War II (piloting gliders), including Normandy (D-Day), Invasion of Southern France (Operation Dragoon, Rugby Force), Invasion of Holland (Operation Market Garden), Bastogne, Belgium (Battle of the Bulge), and the Rhine Crossing (Operation Varsity) at Wessel. One of his missions during the Battle of the Bulge was to deliver a team of medical personnel into Bastogne by glider drop. He also flew re-supply missions and delivered medical personnel (in both C-47 aircraft and gliders) from England and France to Germany after the Rhine Crossing. He was awarded 4 Air Medals, along with many other decorations during this 30 year, 3-war career in the Air Force, but no Bronze Star for just being someplace under fire. He was under fire in every war he served in (World War II, Korea, and Vietnam). Still no Bronze Star. It is unfortunate that these decorations seemed to cheapened by inflation.
I'll just point out that the Canadian snipers, from Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, 3rd Battalion, who supported US special forces in Afghanistan, in 2002, were offered Bronze stars by the US Commander.
The Canadian Forces HQ said, in effect.........Thanks, but no thanks, the boys were just doing what we train them do do. Long distance shooting, with maximum effect, and minimum fuss.
Master Corporal Furlong went on to set a world record for long distance sniping, on his next roto in 2003. 2.5 kilometres.
I'll just point out that the Canadian snipers, from Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, 3rd Battalion, who supported US special forces in Afghanistan, in 2002, were offered Bronze stars by the US Commander.
The Canadian Forces HQ said, in effect.........Thanks, but no thanks, the boys were just doing what we train them do do. Long distance shooting, with maximum effect, and minimum fuss.
Master Corporal Furlong went on to set a world record for long distance sniping, on his next roto in 2003. 2.5 kilometres.
Jim B
Toronto.
Perhaps a clarification needs to be made, there was a lot to be commended for, just part of their accomplishments:
"In December 2003, PPCLI snipers Master Corporal Graham Ragsdale, Master Corporal Tim McMeekin, Corporal Dennis Eason, Corporal Rob Furlong and Master Corporal Arron Perry were awarded the Bronze Star by the U.S. Army for their actions in combat during Operation Anaconda, March 2–11, 2002." "After his resignation from the military, Rob Furlong became a police officer." "Master Corporal Graham Ragsdale of the Canadian Forces was the commander of the Third Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry sniper team attached to the 101st Airborne of the U.S. Army during Operation Anaconda in the Shah-i-kot Valley, Paktia Province, Afghanistan in March, 2002. Was awarded the U.S. Army Bronze Star with "V" for valour for his actions in combat and the Mention in Dispatches Oak Leaf by the Canadian Forces for valiant conduct and meritorious service."
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
