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OK.... I do see your point. However, it is not a good enough reason not to balance out the needs of the armed forces. Those needs have to win out. We can't expect tax payers to pay for services that aren't needed so that that one person has a better civilian career outlook. If we don't need people to do the job, we shouldn't put people in those jobs, period.
Also, homeless veterans, while I feel sorry for them, I'm pretty sure their MOS or AFSC is not the reason they are homeless. There is more to it than that. Do you think if they hadn't have joined the military they would be rich?
For each individual person, maybe the job choice is important, but we can't let the fact that it is important to that individual outweigh the needs of the country or the military in general. We can't base our numbers on what jobs are going to give people the best employment opportunities after they get out. We'd fail as a military if we did that. We'd have 300,000 orthodontists in the military, and no one to carry a weapon. Of course "infantry" doesn't directly translate into a job in the civilian world... but that doesn't mean that we can just say, "OK- well...no one do infantry then"
There has to be a balance.
People who want to join for a certain job, and that's the only reason, I personally (personal opinion only) think they should move on and go to a trade school instead.
I'm not naive, I don't think every person that joins is doing it for alturistic reasons... but they are still getting paid well, still getting gobs of benefits, and still going to gain some usable general skills. MOST jobs, that I can think of off the top of my head, translate into some sort of employment opportunity.
I just hate when I see people (not you, you didn't do it to this extreme) tell young people who want to join, who have a desire to join, "Don't join unless you get job XYZ! Hold out for it! Your recruiter is lying if he says he can't get you that job."....
That can lead to people not joing, and working in a check-out line somewhere instead! I hate that. There are young people who want to join, and don't care about a job so much so, until someone makes them feel like they are supposed to, that that's the point. There is more too it then that.
I just don't want to see good people, who can benefit from everything else in the military, walking away cuz they could do job A, when job B and C were just as employable.
It's still better than no job... which is what a lot of people have right now!
But if it's me, if it's me.... I'd certainly try to get the job I wanted. Maybe cuz I'm already in the Air Force... but I'd do any job they wanted me to do in order to stay in the Air Force. Want me to peel potatoes 8 hours a day, and you're going to pay me the same $35 an hour I make now, and you're going to continue to give my family free health care? And I can keep working on my Master's degree for free? And you're going to give me a retirement in 10 more years when I'm still young enough to start another career? And you're going to let me give my $50,000 GI Bill to my kids for their college? And 1/2 of my income is non-taxable? And I get 154 days off a year? (Weekends, plus holidays, plus 30 days paid vacation, plus "family days)? What... I get 6 weeks of maternity leave...PAID? Oh.... hmmmm.... did you just say that you were also going to give me tons of discounts at restaurants, museums, ect, and a lower priced grocery store on base, and I have job security, and I have guarenteed promotions? And I can make doctors appointments during my work day and no one cares or wants me to clock out, and if my child is sick and can just go home and be with him/her without a cut in pay? And I get a raise every year? And you're going to cover my dental and vision?
OK.... I do see your point. However, it is not a good enough reason not to balance out the needs of the armed forces. Those needs have to win out. We can't expect tax payers to pay for services that aren't needed so that that one person has a better civilian career outlook. If we don't need people to do the job, we shouldn't put people in those jobs, period.
Also, homeless veterans, while I feel sorry for them, I'm pretty sure their MOS or AFSC is not the reason they are homeless. There is more to it than that. Do you think if they hadn't have joined the military they would be rich?
For each individual person, maybe the job choice is important, but we can't let the fact that it is important to that individual outweigh the needs of the country or the military in general. We can't base our numbers on what jobs are going to give people the best employment opportunities after they get out. We'd fail as a military if we did that. We'd have 300,000 orthodontists in the military, and no one to carry a weapon. Of course "infantry" doesn't directly translate into a job in the civilian world... but that doesn't mean that we can just say, "OK- well...no one do infantry then"
There has to be a balance.
People who want to join for a certain job, and that's the only reason, I personally (personal opinion only) think they should move on and go to a trade school instead.
I'm not naive, I don't think every person that joins is doing it for alturistic reasons... but they are still getting paid well, still getting gobs of benefits, and still going to gain some usable general skills. MOST jobs, that I can think of off the top of my head, translate into some sort of employment opportunity.
I just hate when I see people (not you, you didn't do it to this extreme) tell young people who want to join, who have a desire to join, "Don't join unless you get job XYZ! Hold out for it! Your recruiter is lying if he says he can't get you that job."....
That can lead to people not joing, and working in a check-out line somewhere instead! I hate that. There are young people who want to join, and don't care about a job so much so, until someone makes them feel like they are supposed to, that that's the point. There is more too it then that.
I just don't want to see good people, who can benefit from everything else in the military, walking away cuz they could do job A, when job B and C were just as employable.
It's still better than no job... which is what a lot of people have right now!
But if it's me, if it's me.... I'd certainly try to get the job I wanted. Maybe cuz I'm already in the Air Force... but I'd do any job they wanted me to do in order to stay in the Air Force. Want me to peel potatoes 8 hours a day, and you're going to pay me the same $35 an hour I make now, and you're going to continue to give my family free health care? And I can keep working on my Master's degree for free? And you're going to give me a retirement in 10 more years when I'm still young enough to start another career? And you're going to let me give my $50,000 GI Bill to my kids for their college? And 1/2 of my income is non-taxable? And I get 154 days off a year? (Weekends, plus holidays, plus 30 days paid vacation, plus "family days)? What... I get 6 weeks of maternity leave...PAID? Oh.... hmmmm.... did you just say that you were also going to give me tons of discounts at restaurants, museums, ect, and a lower priced grocery store on base, and I have job security, and I have guarenteed promotions? And I can make doctors appointments during my work day and no one cares or wants me to clock out, and if my child is sick and can just go home and be with him/her without a cut in pay? And I get a raise every year? And you're going to cover my dental and vision?
WHERE ARE THE POTATOES... I'LL START PEELING!!
But...this is my opinion.....
That wouldn't have been a problem for me. I would've taken any job they offered. But in an earlier post you said I would have to be off my antidepressants for a year. For 1 I don't even know if I could cope without my medication, and 2 I can't think or plan something a year ahead. I just don't know whats going to be happening than. So yeah Im probably just going to do community college, but it was worth thinking and asking about the Air Force. I still have great respect for our military, I just don't think it would be for me.
Cocytus, the "spartan" mentality that Dmarie speaks of is exactly the one the Marines have and is a big part of our success. I'm a Marine recruiter, and we don't sell jobs, we sell the Marine Corps. My mother was an aircraft mechanic in the Marines. She is now a Qualified Professional in the social work industry. She didn't get that position because she worked on the airplanes. She didn't get b/c she had a degree (which she got through the military, but everyone who applied had a degree) She got it b/c she was a Marine.
It is a mentality, though. You r typical servicemen will say "I'm in the Army", or "I'm in the Navy", or "I'm in the Air Force" while the Marine will answer "I'm a Marine" . Earlier today I referred to myself as a Marine on recruiting duty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
^^^^^
Dmarie,
How can anybody get "too caught up" in the "job thing?"
The main reason for the existence of the military is defend America...I agree.
However, if the training you receive in the military will provide you w/ little or no benefit after you are no longer in the military,what good is it you?
I worked on airplane engines when I was in the USAF. When I got out I got the rude awakening that all five branches (Coast Guard,too) train aircraft mechanics. Also there are civilian technical schools,such as Spartan.
Hence, not a great need for aircraft mechanics at that time.
My point? Unless I used my training in using tools and mechanical and electrical troubleshooting to find another job in another field, I would have been SOL.
I lucked out. Most people who pick a job w/o many civilian equivalents end up having to re-train in another type of work, which,IMHO,defeats a major reason for joining the military in the first place.
If you want to join the military to defend your country...that's great.
However,allowing that mindset to be the primary, or sole, reason for joining is,IMHO,flawed logic and poor reasoning.
Ask the many homeless vets out there if they made good career choices as far as military service.
Just saying....
I know a number of "chapel assistants",weapons loaders and "admin personnel" that got very rude awakenings when they found that the skills that they had spent years perfecting, were of little or no use when they got into the job market.
It's not just the obvious military jobs either. While I worked as a commander's secretary at the base hospital at MacDill, I met a lot of people assigned to the lab where they would draw blood, head out on tons of TDYs to keep up their training, knew how to analyze blood for certain ailments, etc. They were all MSgts and above (E-6s +). Not bad money, when you add in housing allowance, etc. Anyway...I also worked with many who were getting ready for retirement and found out VERY quickly that the job they knew how to do...got paid well to do it in the military...was a job that would only pay them between $20K - $25K in the "real world."
Possibly it's been too many years since I was in the Air Force (1968-72) for my recommendations to be worth anything but I believe I would still recommend the AF to any young person who wants to serve their country. I made E-5 (what was then a Staff Sergeant or four stripes) in 2.5 years. I almost had the time and grade for Tech Sergeant when I left after four years. I was in, what was then, a critical career field, i.e. jet aircraft maintenance. After leaving the AF, I used the G.I. Bill to finish college then parlayed my four years of military tenure into a Federal career in biology from which I am now retired.
When you tell people things like this, you make recruiters look like liars...
Yeah and we all know recruiters NEVER lie.
Quote:
Once upon a time, people didn't "go in open" now that is one of the ways to get in faster than 8 months from now.
What time was this? That has been a faster way to get in for a LONG time.
Quote:
Every recruit has to decide if they want to join the Air Force, of if they want a special skill set. If its just about the skill set, if that's your #1 priority... go to a trade school. If you want to serve your country, get a heck of a paycheck and benefits, and be a part of something bigger than yourself.... then join the Air Force. Your choice...which is more important?
They are not mutually exclusive to say the least. The job is VERY important and ignoring that would be a hideous mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
The most likely WORST case also can be 1) He gets into trouble and is discharged w/ anything but an honorable discharge which means it will hard for him to get any number of differing jobs.
I don't know the guy, but that is probably highly UNlikely. He'd have to screw up pretty bad for that.
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I have to say that I doubt that most service are "more mature" than people in the real world.
You misunderstood me. I meant he would be more mature after having served his time than when he went in.
Quote:
The decision for anybody to stay in the service rests almost solely in the hands of that particular branch. A bad check,a DUI or even a write up in basic training or technical school can all be used to deny re-enlistment at any juncture.
I realize things are different now, but a write-up in BMT vs a DUI is hardly comparable. If you keep your nose clean and do your job, I maintain that odds are generally good that you can make a career out of the military. Hell I have a couple of LORs in my folder and they let me re-up, and I'm not in a field which is low on manpower either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82
Cocytus, the "spartan" mentality that Dmarie speaks of is exactly the one the Marines have and is a big part of our success.
...but not relevant to this topic as this guy is looking at the Air Force. Whole diff ball game.
Props for your service though. semper fi
CT best of luck. If you do some schooling and re-consider this later, it'll still be there. You're young, you've got the luxury of time, unlike us old coots.
Joey- I didn't say that people NEVER went in open, it was just unpopular. And those who did go in open, told everyone they knew who was thinking about it not to go in open (in every case I've personally seen anyway). That is still happening. People come in thinking that they are not supposed to go in open, and that they can demand a job, and it's a big game like selling a used car, so they dig in their heels and then think we are lying if we tell them we can't give them a certain job. If I had the job available.... why would I risk them walking out the door? What would I gain from saving the job for someone else? A booking is a booking is a booking.
Cocytus, the "spartan" mentality that Dmarie speaks of is exactly the one the Marines have and is a big part of our success. I'm a Marine recruiter, and we don't sell jobs, we sell the Marine Corps. My mother was an aircraft mechanic in the Marines. She is now a Qualified Professional in the social work industry. She didn't get that position because she worked on the airplanes. She didn't get b/c she had a degree (which she got through the military, but everyone who applied had a degree) She got it b/c she was a Marine.
It is a mentality, though. You r typical servicemen will say "I'm in the Army", or "I'm in the Navy", or "I'm in the Air Force" while the Marine will answer "I'm a Marine" . Earlier today I referred to myself as a Marine on recruiting duty.
Hmm...
Can you define what "success" means to you as being a Marine?
I went to tech school w/ Marines and I served w/ them on base in Arizona in the late 80's.
While I admired the resolve of the Marines I met and I considered some of them friends, I also noticed that a number of them were making career choices that would charitably be called "unwise."
But my point was this: MOST people who join the military are not in it for the "long haul." They either leave of their accord or are removed from the service.
Going into the military knowing this,it makes little sense for a young person to not put their career goals and ambitions in the forefront of their decision-making process.
Esprit de corp and valor don't pay the bills. And since most Americans no longer choose military service, the admiration that vets used to receive in some quarters of teh workplace is diminishing and will probably continue to do as such when (if) the SW Asian conflicts end.
That means anybody who dedicates 4 or more years of their life to a career field that has no comparable civilian equivalent or that has limited value in the job market,may be making a grave error in judgment.
I'm sure that you'll agree that wasted time is the one thing that you never get back.
Do they need cooks,chapel assistants,weapons troops in the military?
Sure.
Is there anything wrong w/ those jobs?
No,of course not.
But since there's not much need for any of those three on the outside (too many cooks already) training for those jobs in the military may not be the wisest use of most people's time.
Joey- I didn't say that people NEVER went in open, it was just unpopular. And those who did go in open, told everyone they knew who was thinking about it not to go in open (in every case I've personally seen anyway). That is still happening. People come in thinking that they are not supposed to go in open, and that they can demand a job, and it's a big game like selling a used car, so they dig in their heels and then think we are lying if we tell them we can't give them a certain job. If I had the job available.... why would I risk them walking out the door? What would I gain from saving the job for someone else? A booking is a booking is a booking.
ah got it, thx for clarifying....
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