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Old 02-24-2015, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Baltimore
684 posts, read 797,964 times
Reputation: 553

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Type in the words "Milwaukee, poor" and look at the images...then type in "Baltimore, poor" and look at those images.

Absolutely no comparison. One author of a related article thought that Baltimore had the "worst decay" he'd ever seen in an American city, and thought that whatever "charm" the city once had, it's long gone now.

The photos of Milwaukee were only a few in number, and mostly depicted tenants being evicted from fairly decent-looking single family homes, with yards, and no obvious graffiti/garbage lying around. Baltimore, on the other hand, well...a different story, to put it mildly. Those neighborhoods look like something out of a 3rd world environment.

The days of Johnny U and Frank Robinson are long gone in Baltimore. Too bad, really...

Milwaukee has lost its manufacturing base, including steel and some breweries, and a famous, successful team (the Braves of Hank Aaron/Eddie Mathews of the 50s/early 60s) and the Packers ( who used to play 4 games a year in County Stadium, but now stay in Green Bay), but the city has remained physically decent, even picturesque in places..
I don't have to type in Baltimore poor cause I know what it look like. Typing in Milwaukee poor do not give any just to that city at all. Even if it looks suburban. Days of braves and packers are gone to bad, really. And most of the vacant rowhomes in these areas have already been demolished and or are getting gentrified and renovated for preservation. Most people that make articles of Baltimore have never been here before and just pass opinions on and on

Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 02-24-2015 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:04 PM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,514,422 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernest Southernest C View Post
Most people that make articles of Baltimore have never been here before and just pass opinions on and on
Look, I've got nothing against Balitimore but do you think Milwaukee is some golden child city? With everyone just touting how wonderful it is & we can do no wrong?

Our city gets proverbial kicked in the teeth by outstate legislators on the regular, while the national press alternates between ignoring or focusing on some issue that they don't actually care about resolving. Drive by journalism isn't just a fact of life in Baltimore, we all get our share.

I wish Baltimore well... someday I'd like to visit and see those restored neighborhoods you talk about. I've read the book "The Baltimore Rowhouse" and your city has some interesting history and building stock.
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
684 posts, read 797,964 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
Look, I've got nothing against Balitimore but do you think Milwaukee is some golden child city? With everyone just touting how wonderful it is & we can do no wrong?

Our city gets proverbial kicked in the teeth by outstate legislators on the regular, while the national press alternates between ignoring or focusing on some issue that they don't actually care about resolving. Drive by journalism isn't just a fact of life in Baltimore, we all get our share.

I wish Baltimore well... someday I'd like to visit and see those restored neighborhoods you talk about. I've read the book "The Baltimore Rowhouse" and your city has some interesting history and building stock.
Look, I've got nothing against Balitimore but do you think Milwaukee is some golden child city? With everyone just touting how wonderful it is & we can do no wrong?

No I don't the same could be said for Baltimore- do you think its just a slummed out, 3rd world-like city? However, Baltimore gets bashed on many threads and posts that have nothing to do with other than to make certain areas feel better about their own situations. That's my issue your crap stinks to. I wouldn't be on here if it wasn't.

Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 02-24-2015 at 04:15 PM..
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
925 posts, read 1,738,182 times
Reputation: 1585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northernest Southernest C View Post
Look, I've got nothing against Balitimore but do you think Milwaukee is some golden child city? With everyone just touting how wonderful it is & we can do no wrong?

No I don't the same could be said for Baltimore- do you think its just a slummed out, 3rd world-like city? However, Baltimore gets bashed on many threads and posts that have nothing to do with other than to make certain areas feel better about their own situations. That's my issue your crap stinks to. I wouldn't be on here if it wasn't.
I can really sympathize with you on this one. Milwaukee gets cheap shots all the time. It gets old, especially when it's over the top hyperbole. I don't blame you for sticking up for your city - good for you.

Some city get a pass for whatever reason such as Minneapolis/St.Paul, which happens to have the same poverty rate as Baltimore. Who would have thought it?
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:02 PM
 
8,277 posts, read 10,206,741 times
Reputation: 9980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton View Post
I can really sympathize with you on this one. Milwaukee gets cheap shots all the time. It gets old, especially when it's over the top hyperbole. I don't blame you for sticking up for your city - good for you.

Some city get a pass for whatever reason such as Minneapolis/St.Paul, which happens to have the same poverty rate as Baltimore. Who would have thought it?
Minneapolis is in much better shape than Baltimore. It's not even debatable. The Minneapolis -St. Paul area isn't a boarded-up, crumbling wreck like parts of Baltimore are. It's also never reached the point where entire neighborhoods simply emptied out, and were left for dead. It's good for Baltimore to be doing some rehab work--the question, though is: Why was the city allowed to decay so much before anything was done? I've visited several times, and couldn't believe the areas outside of the Inner Harbor, or parts of Federal Hill.

Milwaukee is in much better shape than Baltimore, and Minneapolis is simply in a different hemisphere from Baltimore. And I've spent plenty of time in all three.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
684 posts, read 797,964 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Minneapolis is in much better shape than Baltimore. It's not even debatable. The Minneapolis -St. Paul area isn't a boarded-up, crumbling wreck like parts of Baltimore are. It's also never reached the point where entire neighborhoods simply emptied out, and were left for dead. It's good for Baltimore to be doing some rehab work--the question, though is: Why was the city allowed to decay so much before anything was done? I've visited several times, and couldn't believe the areas outside of the Inner Harbor, or parts of Federal Hill.

Milwaukee is in much better shape than Baltimore, and Minneapolis is simply in a different hemisphere from Baltimore. And I've spent plenty of time in all three.
Dude your in denial and your trying to avoid the fact that your city has a higher poverty rate. As you keep saying we have boarded houses and as I said yes we do that's a fact we already discussed, is that your only reason. The areas immediately outside of the harbor are some of the best urban neighborhoods (Mount Vernon, Fells Point, Federal Hill, Riverside, Ridley's Delight, Canton, Bolton Hill, Reservoir Hill and more) in the nation and we have some of the worse. Again, immediately outside of downtown those inner city neighborhoods are the most common to tourist because they're walkable and right next door to downtown/inner harbor but as I said that's not the whole city you cant explore a place in a day or even a week. Most of North, Northwest, and Northeast Baltimore do not even consist of row homes but middle class family homes and old mansions.

the question, though is: Why was the city allowed to decay so much before anything was done?
They have and continue to do tremendous revitalization of the waterfront and harbor area, but as many residents of the city ask the same question. There really was no major investment into its neighborhoods, or schools unless its a neighborhood with a sizable amount of homeowners and taxpayers. Some of the old vacant and once boarded up gentrified neighborhoods like Fells Point, Federal Hill and Otterbein were only revitalized by private homeowners when the city decided to sell vacant row homes for a dollar in hopes of rehabbing neighborhoods in the 70s-80s which worked but lost interest over time. Today other neighborhoods gentrify not by city initiatives but the fact that the city's central location has a low cost of living compared to the Bos-Wash megalopolis area which is why the city is growing in millennials.

Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 02-24-2015 at 06:42 PM..
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
684 posts, read 797,964 times
Reputation: 553
In case you've never been to Baltimore here's another perspective of a visitor picture thread he recently done of Baltimore and neighborhoods surrounding downtown. Don't believe the hype
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1793377

Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 02-24-2015 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
518 posts, read 639,743 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Minneapolis is in much better shape than Baltimore. It's not even debatable. The Minneapolis -St. Paul area isn't a boarded-up, crumbling wreck like parts of Baltimore are. It's also never reached the point where entire neighborhoods simply emptied out, and were left for dead. It's good for Baltimore to be doing some rehab work--the question, though is: Why was the city allowed to decay so much before anything was done? I've visited several times, and couldn't believe the areas outside of the Inner Harbor, or parts of Federal Hill.

Milwaukee is in much better shape than Baltimore, and Minneapolis is simply in a different hemisphere from Baltimore. And I've spent plenty of time in all three.
Agreed on all counts.

While it is true that Minneapolis and Baltimore have very similar poverty rates, this is a case where there is more than meets the eye. The income threshold for poverty rates is not adjusted for cost of living, they are established by the federal government and uniform throughout the country.

For example, a family of four with a household income below $23,xxx dollars is considered to be living in poverty. Baltimore is located in Maryland, which has the highest per capita income of any state in the country. As a general rule, low paying jobs pay more in high income areas than they do in low to middle income areas. This will tend to skew downward the number of people below federal poverty guidelines in higher cost areas.

Minneapolis doesn't get a "free pass" it just compares quite favorably with most cities using objective criteria and/or anecdotal observations.

I find that a pretty good measure of the overall well being of a city is its murder rate. If nothing else, it is one of the few statistics that is reported accurately all of the time in almost every city. Rape, robbery, assault and property crime stats are often influenced by the reporting practices of the municipality. There aren't uniform standards.

Cities that are thriving tend to have the lowest murder rates. This would include New York, Boston, Seattle, LA, San Francisco and to a slightly lesser degree, Minneapolis.

Cities that are generally recognized as troubled, declining etc. have some of the highest murder rates including Detroit, Baltimore and St Louis.

Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland and several others fall somewhere in the middle to higher range of the spectrum. Chicago is often singled out in this category because in recent years it has had the largest number of homicides, even though New York and LA have larger populations. However, Chicago's murder rate is on par with most other mid-large Midwestern cities.

Cities that were struggling in the past but have improved in recent years have scene a dramatic drop in their murder rate. Washington D.C. is probably the most notable example followed by Atlanta and a few others.

All of this data is available on City Data if you Google any city name and "crime rate."

For example, here is the range of murder rates per 100,000 residents for each city between the years 2000 and 2012:

New York City 5.1 - 8.7
Minneapolis 4.7 - 15.2
Milwaukee 11.8 - 21.1
Baltimore 31.3 - 45.2
Detroit 33.8 - 54.6

Looking that the above, comparing the three cities in question along with an extreme on both sides paints a pretty accurate picture. If we're being unbiased and intellectually honest, I think most would conclude that the overall murder rate and the direction the rate is trending is a pretty good indicator of the overall health of a city. If you disagree with my conclusion, please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

Last edited by MidwestRedux; 02-24-2015 at 06:04 PM.. Reason: grammar and content
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Old 02-24-2015, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
684 posts, read 797,964 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestRedux View Post

New York City 5.1 - 8.7
Minneapolis 4.7 - 15.2
Milwaukee 11.8 - 21.1
Baltimore 31.3 - 45.2
Detroit 33.8 - 54.6
Twenty-two fewer people lost their lives last year—an almost 10 percent decrease. Despite those numbers Baltimore decreased its murder rate although still high does that mean its on the rebound?

Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 02-24-2015 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:22 PM
 
8,277 posts, read 10,206,741 times
Reputation: 9980
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestRedux View Post
Agreed on all counts.

While it is true that Minneapolis and Baltimore have very similar poverty rates, this is a case where there is more than meets the eye. The income threshold for poverty rates is not adjusted for cost of living, they are established by the federal government and uniform throughout the country.

For example, a family of four with a household income below $23,xxx dollars is considered to be living in poverty. Baltimore is located in Maryland, which has the highest per capita income of any state in the country. As a general rule, low paying jobs pay more in high income areas than they do in low to middle income areas. This will tend to skew downward the number of people below federal poverty guidelines in higher cost areas.

Minneapolis doesn't get a "free pass" it just compares quite favorably with most cities using objective criteria and/or anecdotal observations.

I find that a pretty good measure of the overall well being of a city is its murder rate. If nothing else, it is one of the few statistics that is reported accurately all of the time in almost every city. Rape, robbery, assault and property crime stats are often influenced by the reporting practices of the municipality. There aren't uniform standards.

Cities that are thriving tend to have the lowest murder rates. This would include New York, Boston, Seattle, LA, San Francisco and to a slightly lesser degree, Minneapolis.

Cities that are generally recognized as troubled, declining etc. have some of the highest murder rates including Detroit, Baltimore and St Louis.

Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland and several others fall somewhere in the middle to higher range of the spectrum. Chicago is often singled out in this category because in recent years it has had the largest number of homicides, even though New York and LA have larger populations. However, Chicago's murder rate is on par with most other mid-large Midwestern cities.

Cities that were struggling in the past but have improved in recent years have scene a dramatic drop in their murder rate. Washington D.C. is probably the most notable example followed by Atlanta and a few others.

All of this data is available on City Data if you Google any city name and "crime rate."

For example, here is the range of murder rates per 100,000 residents for each city between the years 2000 and 2012:

New York City 5.1 - 8.7
Minneapolis 4.7 - 15.2
Milwaukee 11.8 - 21.1
Baltimore 31.3 - 45.2
Detroit 33.8 - 54.6

Looking that the above, comparing the three cities in question along with an extreme on both sides paints a pretty accurate picture. If we're being unbiased and intellectually honest, I think most would conclude that the overall murder rate and the direction the rate is trending is a pretty good indicator of the overall health of a city. If you disagree with my conclusion, please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.
Very good post, by the way--I agree with everything..

BTW, for another reader: I live in the Boston area. I used to live in Wisconsin years ago ( Madison, but visited Milwaukee many times, and enjoyed it).

I had to laugh a little when the murder rates are mentioned: Baltimore has "improved" to the point where now its murder rate is only 3 times as bad as Minneapolis, and only twice as bad as Milwaukee. Talk about damning with faint praise. If wealth indicators and good eyesight aren't enough to sway you, then murder rates should certainly work. There were reasons why Baltimore was chosen as the backdrop for not one, but two TV crime/murder shows ( Homicide in the 1990s, The Wire in 2000s). I'm quite sure that the city wasn't chosen out of thin air..

Those same rowhouses that were temporally sold in the 70s-80s under urban homesteader agreements are now being "sold" for less than $10,000 on Craigslist and other real estate sites, which should give you an idea of their "desirability". You too, can own a dump in a shooting gallery..

Your statements about the relative wealth of states is correct, too. Minnesota is considered to be an above-average state in wealth, but not necessarily truly wealthy. The key is its lower cost of living, which isn't dirt cheap, but not sky-high either. Milwauke, and Wisconsin in general, fall into the same categories. Minnesota historically was not an industrial state ( other than minerals from the Iron Range going through Duluth), but known more for agriculture and lumbering, and thus avoided the decline of heavy industry. Minneapolis is now loaded with Fortune headquarters and home offices for many major companies, and the economy has historically been quite strong in the Twin Cities,, and is only getting better. I hope that Wisconsin follows suit soon, but with Scott Walker in charge, that's pretty doubtful. Wisconsin's shining star is really Madison, which has always been near the top of the nation's desirable cities, but Milwaukee certainly has that potential.Its neighborhoods are in good shape, it has Lake Michigan and Marquette University as its neighbors, great ethnic restaurants *( especially German and Polish/Serbian), and Chicago just down the road..

I hope that Baltimore improves, but frankly, it's got a long way to go, more than most cities. Some parts of that city are the worst-looking places I've seen in the US, and I've been all over the US. Milwaukee and Minneapolis have nothing that even remotely resembles the horrid conditions in some parts of Baltimore.

Not even close.

Last edited by MassVt; 02-24-2015 at 07:36 PM..
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